1 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:45,990 Recording in one minute. Studio stand by. 2 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:48,799 We'll talk about cuts 3 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,110 in government extravagance, aren'twe? 4 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,512 We'll get to that if we've got time afterthe National Data Base. 5 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,908 I don't think people are really interested in the Data Base. 6 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,149 It's so trivial. 7 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:02,320 VTrunning. 8 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,914 - What's the matter? - You look a bit too pink. 9 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,992 We can't have that, whatwould the Daily Telegraph say? 10 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,311 All those questions about "are we creating a police state?" 11 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,074 - We can do without those. - Jim, you knowme. 12 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,276 I don't give out my questions in advance. 13 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,078 Dead silence, please. 14 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:19,639 Ten seconds... 15 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,077 Five. Four. Three. Two... 16 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:26,475 Good evening. 17 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,632 Is Big Brotherwatching you? To be more precise, 18 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,792 the Government is building up a dossieron you. 19 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:37,351 It's called by the harmless name of"National Integrated Data Base". 20 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,279 At the press of a button any civil servant 21 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,318 can inspect just about every detail of your life 22 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,870 yourtax, yourmedical record, periods of unemployment, 23 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,077 children's school records, and that civil servant 24 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,196 may happen to be yourneighbour. 25 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,393 There's been mounting concern overthis powerful, 26 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,313 even totalitarian weapon that the computerrevolution 27 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,357 has put into the Government's hand. 28 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,432 And the man who wields the weapon is the Minister 29 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,388 forAdministrative Affairs, the Right Honourable James Hacker. 30 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,237 Now, Minister, are we laying the foundations of a police state? 31 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,275 You know, I'm glad you asked me that question. 32 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,110 Well, Minister, could we have the answer? 33 00:02:19,640 --> 00:02:23,519 Well, yes of course, I'm about to give it to you, if I may. 34 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,509 As I said, I'm glad you asked me that question. 35 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:27,680 Because... 36 00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:30,194 it's a question 37 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:32,751 a lot of people are asking. 38 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:33,920 And why? 39 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,796 Because a lot of people want to know the answerto it. 40 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,954 And let's be quite clearabout this without beating about the bush, 41 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,834 the plain fact of the matter is 42 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,596 that it's a very important question indeed 43 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,116 and people have a right to know. 44 00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:56,992 But Minister, we haven't yet had the answer. 45 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,151 I'm sorry, whatwas the question? 46 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,077 Now look, supposing I annoy you in this interview, 47 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,629 how do I know you won't go back to youroffice, 48 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,314 press a button and call up my tax records, 49 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,153 my hospital records, my police record... 50 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:13,435 Oh no. No. No. 51 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,273 Bob, that's not the way we do things in this country. 52 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,069 What's the Data Base for if it's not to check up on people? 53 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,637 You know, that's a very interesting question. 54 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,115 It's forstoring information 55 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,477 so as to speed up government business 56 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,878 so thatwe need not take on an enormous influx of clerical staff. 57 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,555 Computers are big business and are good news. 58 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,872 But, Minister, if you put information into the machine, 59 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,793 you'll eventually take information out of the machine. 60 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:48,758 Not necessarily. 61 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,518 So, you're going to spend 25 million pounds 62 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:54,671 accumulating information and neveruse it? 63 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,397 No. Yes. No. 64 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,840 Well, there will be safeguards. 65 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:02,069 Such as? 66 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,395 Close in on him, Two. Bob's got him on the run. 67 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:06,953 One minute 45, studio. 68 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,157 We'll be looking at a whole range of possibilities. 69 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,030 And of course, it's a complex and highly technical matter. 70 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,077 Rome wasn't built in a day. 71 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:18,594 It's underreview. 72 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,069 And of course, these things take time. 73 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,676 Minister, am I talking to the formereditorof Reform 74 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:26,592 orto a Civil Service spokesman? 75 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,513 We haven't talked about the safeguards I've introduced. 76 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,877 And there's my newbureaucratic watchdog office, for instance. 77 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:34,958 It does look as if we'll need 78 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,395 a whole pack of watchdogs before long. 79 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,159 But thank you very much. 80 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,554 Right, hold it there while we check the tape. 81 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,359 - How did it go? - Well, I thought... First class. 82 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,114 - Very good indeed. - I thought I waffled a bit. 83 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:51,192 Oh no, you stonewalled superbly, Minister. 84 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:52,429 Time fora drink? 85 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:55,676 About the safeguards I've introduced. 86 00:04:55,840 --> 00:04:58,479 My newbureaucratic watchdog office, for instance. 87 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,030 It sounds as if we'll need a pack of watchdogs before very long. 88 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:03,599 But thank you very much. 89 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:05,794 In next week's topic... 90 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,633 - Howwas I? - Splendid, Minister. 91 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,151 Very dignified. Very suitable. 92 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,390 Yes, Sir Humphrey, I congratulate you. 93 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,551 Jim is nowperfectly house trained. 94 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:17,438 He does exactly what you tell him. 95 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,194 - Lf you'll excuse me, Mr. Weasel. - Weisel. 96 00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:25,431 You say everything the Civil Service programmes you to say. 97 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,352 What are you a man ora mouth? 98 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:28,873 Very amusing, Frank. 99 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,157 It might be hard fora Political Advisorto understand this, 100 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,231 but I am merely a Civil Servant, 101 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,631 I simply do as I am instructed by my master. 102 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,229 If the Minister's a woman what do you call her? 103 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,232 Yes, that's rather interesting. 104 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:43,799 We sought an answer 105 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,555 when I was Principal Private Secretary and Dr. Edith Summerskill, 106 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,712 as she then was, was appointed Minister in 1947. 107 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,713 I didn't quite like to refer to heras my Mistress. 108 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,513 - Whatwas the answer? - We're still waiting for it. 109 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,471 It's underreview, is it? Rome wasn't built in a day. 110 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:03,870 - These things take time. - I must be going. 111 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,031 - Me too. - May I remind you 112 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,316 we meet tomorrowmorning at Paddington at 8? 113 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:10,755 - Where are we going? - Swansea, Minister. 114 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,708 You're addressing the Conference of Municipal Treasurers. 115 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:15,995 Oh, yes. 116 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,391 You're due in Newcastle to address the by election meeting. 117 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,278 - So I am. - You can't do both. 118 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,590 - I can't do both. - That's a Civil Service junket. 119 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,274 - The by election's important. - It's important. 120 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,876 The Conference is in yourdiary. They expect you in Swansea. 121 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:31,871 They expects you in Newcastle. 122 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,634 - How come he's double booked? - How come I'm double booked? 123 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,473 Well, largely because nobody told me about Newcastle. 124 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,358 - Why didn't you tell him? - Why didn't you? 125 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,078 I can't remembereverything. 126 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,111 Frank, I think I'd bettergo to Swansea. 127 00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:46,396 - Is that a decision? - Yes, that's final. 128 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:48,118 The P. M. Expects you to go to Newcastle. 129 00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:49,474 The P. M? 130 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:51,955 I think I'd bettergo to Newcastle, Bernard. 131 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,240 - Is that a decision, Jim? - Yes, that's final. 132 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,231 - Now I'm going home. - Is that a decision? 133 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:58,753 No, quite seriously... 134 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,275 I think you've made the wrong decision. 135 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,749 Yourvisit to Swansea's been announced. 136 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,150 - You can't get out of it. - Oh, Lord! 137 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,551 Find a way of getting me from Swansea to Newcastle. 138 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,951 Car, train, helicopter, anything. I'll have to do both. 139 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,509 And now I'm going home, and that is final! 140 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:17,796 - Finallyfinal? - Absolutelyfinally. 141 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,834 If you could do all yourboxes tonight. 142 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,834 There's all the M&A Committee papers and all the letters. 143 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,116 And if you're a good boy, you'll get a sweetie. 144 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:28,280 Good. 145 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:35,954 Hello, darling. 146 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,918 - Thanks, George. Goodnight. - Goodnight, sir. 147 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:45,557 - Hello, darling. - Hello. 148 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:48,959 Leaving me at last? 149 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,395 It's ouranniversary tomorrow, have you forgotten? 150 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:53,869 No, of course I haven't forgotten. 151 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,869 We're going to Paris. Oh, my God! 152 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:58,553 - You had forgotten. - No, I hadn't. 153 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,598 No, it's just that I... I didn't... I'm double... 154 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,389 - I'm going to Swansea tomorrow. - Swansea? 155 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:05,629 And Newcastle. 156 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:07,791 I don'twant to go there formy anniversary. 157 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:09,552 No. Not you. Just me. 158 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:11,676 - Cancel them! - I can't. 159 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:18,353 What are you doing? 160 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,589 Cancel them! We booked this three months ago. 161 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,752 - I can't. - Then I'll go to Paris without you. 162 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,470 Hello, Bernard... Yes, it's me... 163 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:35,756 I'm going to have to cancel tomorrow. 164 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,835 Swansea and Newcastle. 165 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,388 It's my wife's wedding anniversary tomorrow... 166 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:44,749 It's yours too! 167 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,037 Yeah, and mine too actually. Yes, it is. 168 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,431 Coincidence? Don't be silly. 169 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,593 Anyway, I'm going to Paris tomorrow and that's final. 170 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,670 Yes, I said that before, but this time is final! 171 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,320 You'll just have to cope as best as you can. 172 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:03,469 Yes? 173 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,031 Yes... definitely... 174 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:08,119 Yes... 175 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:09,548 Is that clear? 176 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:11,235 Right! 177 00:09:11,680 --> 00:09:13,193 We're going to Paris. 178 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:15,869 No, I'm going to Swansea and Newcastle. 179 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,994 - See me on TV tonight? - I saw somebody who looked like you. 180 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:24,991 - What's that meant to mean? - Nothing. 181 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,879 Frank says I've become a Civil Service mouthpiece. 182 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:29,234 - Yes. - What do you mean, yes? 183 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,231 - Well... yes. - You mean you agree? 184 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,834 - Of course. - What do you mean, of course? 185 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,310 You could have hired and actor to say it all foryou. 186 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,948 And why not just sign your letters with a rubberstamp? 187 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,509 Orget an Assistant Principal to sign them foryou. 188 00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:44,079 They write them anyway. 189 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,198 Assistant Principals do notwrite my letters! 190 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:49,798 UnderSecretaries do that. 191 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:52,191 I rest my case, my lord. 192 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,510 - You think I've become a puppet? - Yes, I do. 193 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,632 Get Miss Piggy to do yourjob. She's prettier. 194 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:01,392 I don't knowwhat to do. 195 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:03,710 I'm just swamped by the work. 196 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,197 Oh, Annie, I'm so depressed. 197 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,316 As we're not going to Paris, 198 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,228 let's at least go out fora quiet little dinnertonight. 199 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:16,035 No, I can't. 200 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,714 Bernard's told me to get through three boxes. 201 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:20,836 What do you mean, Bernard's told you? 202 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,838 When you edited "Reform" you were quite different. 203 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,275 You went in, you told people what to do, 204 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,158 and you got what you wanted! 205 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,471 Eitheryou get them by the throat orthey get you by the throat! 206 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,916 Howmany articles did you tearup in those days? 207 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,117 - Dozens. - And howmany official papers? 208 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,113 - I'm not allowed to! - Not allowed to? 209 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,239 Darling, you're the Minister, you can do anything you like. 210 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,595 No, Humphrey, I've decided that Frank was right. 211 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:53,034 And Bob McKenzie too. 212 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,839 The National Data Base has got to be organised differently. 213 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,000 Yes, Minister. 214 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,196 We want all possible built in safeguards. 215 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,351 - Yes, Minister. - Right away. 216 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,432 What precisely do you mean, right away? 217 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:06,713 I mean right away. 218 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,231 I see, you mean right away? 219 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,234 - Got it in one, Humphrey. - Well, Minister... 220 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,073 We are still in the early months of this Government. 221 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:16,719 And there's an awful lot to get... 222 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:18,950 The Data Base rules have got to be changed. Now! 223 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,430 - But you can't, Minister. - Yes, I can, I'm the Minister. 224 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:24,312 Yes, indeed you are, Minister. 225 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,156 And quite an excellent Ministerat that. 226 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,311 Nevermind the soft soap, Humphrey. 227 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,830 I want all citizens to have a right to see theirown files 228 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,675 and I want legislation to make unauthorised access, illegal. 229 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,629 - Very well. It shall be done. - Good. 230 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,196 But the legislation necessary to give the public the right 231 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,670 to take legal action is extremely complicated 232 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,877 and would take considerable time to draft, 233 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:51,598 promulgate and enact. 234 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,355 Legislation isn't necessaryfora citizen to see his own files, is it? 235 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,188 - No... - Then, we'll startwith that. 236 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,636 I suppose we could manage that slightly quicker, 237 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,110 but there's an awful lot of administrative problems as well. 238 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,191 This must have been examined before. 239 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,193 The Data Base has been in preparation foryears. 240 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,999 There must have been discussions about it. 241 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,072 - Yes, indeed. - What conclusions were reached? 242 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,558 Humphrey, what conclusions were reached? 243 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,798 What did my predecessor want to do about it? 244 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,116 Humphrey, can you hearme? 245 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:31,273 My lips are sealed. 246 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:33,109 I beg yourpardon? 247 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,238 I am not at liberty to reveal previous plans, Minister. 248 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:37,469 Why not? 249 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,235 Would you like everything that you have said in this office 250 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,358 to be revealed subsequently to one of youropponents? 251 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:46,515 I see. No. 252 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:50,514 We cannot give youropponents political ammunition against you. 253 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:52,751 But Tom Sargent was my predecessor. 254 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,480 It isn't a party political mattersurely? 255 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,234 It's a matterof principle. It justwouldn't be... 256 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,313 I see and we don'twant to do anything thatwouldn't be... 257 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:03,515 No. 258 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,150 - Oh, excuse me, Minister. - Yes, Bernard? 259 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:08,878 A slight problem, Minister. 260 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,037 Because of the adverse... 261 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,113 not entirelyfavourable press reaction to your interview, 262 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,999 the otherChannel wants you fortheirprogramme. 263 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:19,309 - Say no. - No? 264 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:20,913 - Yes, no. - Yes no? 265 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,912 - Yes, say no! That's final. - Lf that's what you want. 266 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,389 But they would go ahead with the item 267 00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:30,313 and nobody would be there to state yourcase. 268 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:31,799 No? Okay, yes. 269 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:33,593 No, okay, yes... 270 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,871 - Oh, I see what you mean. - Yes. 271 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:38,399 Finallyfinal? 272 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:40,479 Thank you, Bernard. 273 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:44,831 What am I going to tell them about safeguards. Humphrey? 274 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,560 Perhaps you could remind them, Minister, 275 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,915 that Rome wasn't built in a day? 276 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:01,389 Tom. 277 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,634 - Oh, my dearfellow. - Mind if I join you? 278 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:06,119 No, of course not. 279 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,189 Well, how are you enjoying being in opposition? 280 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,471 How are you enjoying being in Government? 281 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,552 Well, not as much as I expected, actually. 282 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,871 - Well, not at the moment. - Humphrey got you undercontrol? 283 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:20,991 It's so hard to get things done. 284 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,958 - Did you manage to get things done? - Oh, almost nothing. 285 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:29,191 When I did cotton on to his technique, there was the election. 286 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,551 - Technique? - Stalling technique. 287 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,674 - Stalling technique? - It comes in five stages. 288 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,517 First, he'll tell you there's lots of things to be getting on with. 289 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,915 - He told me that this morning. - Quite. 290 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,312 Then, if you still persist, he'll say something like 291 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,677 "Ah, yes, Minister, I quite appreciate the intention, 292 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:51,796 certainly something ought to be done, 293 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,077 but are you sure this is the rightway to achieve it?". 294 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:56,673 I must make a note of this. 295 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,276 Now, if you are still undeterred, he will shift his ground. 296 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,358 He will shift from telling you how to do it 297 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:05,272 to when you should do it. 298 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:06,913 I mean, he'll say, 299 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:12,440 "Now, Minister, this is not the right time, forall sorts of reasons". 300 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,353 - And Ministers settle forthat? - Well, lots do. 301 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,433 And if you don't, he'll say that the policy"has run into difficulties". 302 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,559 - Such as? - Technical, political, legal... 303 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:25,958 Legal are the best sort. 304 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,759 He can make those totally incomprehensible. 305 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:33,079 And with any luck, this technique will have lasted forthree years 306 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,800 and you'll be at the final stage when he says: 307 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,713 "We're getting very close to the next general election. 308 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:40,871 Are you sure you can get this policy through?" 309 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:42,996 Howhas it taken three years? 310 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,596 Sir Humphrey will do absolutely nothing unless you chase him. 311 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,671 And you've got fartoo much to do. 312 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,389 You see, it's what they call "creative inertia". 313 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,797 What's the policy you're trying to get through anyway? 314 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,918 I'm trying to make this National Integrated Data Base 315 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:02,752 a bit less of a Big Brother. 316 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,192 Oh, is that what it is? 317 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,158 - He's told you it's all quite new? - Well, yes. 318 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,436 My dearfellow, we spent years on that. 319 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,068 We had a White Paper when they called election. 320 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:15,559 I've done it all. 321 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,078 - And administrative problems? - I've solved them. 322 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,074 And you couldn't see any of the previous papers? 323 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,435 No wonder. He's wiped the slate clean. 324 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,273 D'you knowwhat his next move's gonna be? 325 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,113 - No. - Howmany boxes have you got? 326 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,430 - Three? Four? - Five. 327 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,239 Did he tell you not to worry about the fifth one? 328 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:38,914 - Yes. - Right. I'll take a bet. 329 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,992 You will find at the bottom of the fifth box a memo 330 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,994 which explains exactly why any newmoves on the Data Base 331 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,276 must be delayed. If you don't find it, 332 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,637 he won't do anotherblind thing, but in six month's time 333 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,588 he'll say that he has told you all about it. 334 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,835 Tom, you were in office foryears. You know all the Civil Service tricks. 335 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,639 Not all, old boy. Just a fewhundred. 336 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,713 And how do you make them do something they don'twant to do? 337 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,631 My dearfellow, if I knew that I wouldn't be in Opposition. 338 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,792 But I don't get it. Tom's the opposition. 339 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:20,598 Why did he tell you all this? 340 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,275 - The Opposition aren't the opposition. - Of course not. Silly of me. 341 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,557 - They are called that. - They're the opposition in exile. 342 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,273 The Civil Service are the Opposition in residence. 343 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,669 Now then, bottom of the fifth box, Tom said. 344 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,798 But you can't really do anything. 345 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,109 Oh, can't I? 346 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,754 Tom's given me all his papers on the Data Base. 347 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:44,998 Three year's worth! 348 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:46,548 Marvellous! 349 00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:50,633 Found it. 350 00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:53,635 It had slipped into an 80 page report 351 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:55,552 on Welfare procedures. 352 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,069 "Safeguards still underdiscussion... 353 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:02,996 programme not finalised... 354 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:05,198 nothing precipitate... 355 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,912 failing instructions to the contrary, propose await developments". 356 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:11,080 Typical! 357 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,789 - Ring Humphrey and tell him. - I'll see him first thing. 358 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,799 - Ring him now! - It's two o'clock. 359 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,315 - He'll be fast asleep. - Exactly! 360 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:23,595 Annie. 361 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,115 Why should he be asleep and you're still working? 362 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,589 He's had you on the run. Now it's yourturn. 363 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,277 I couldn't do that. 364 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:33,468 What's his number? 365 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,957 Itwas in the fifth box, you couldn't have got to it earlier. 366 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:39,309 True. 367 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:57,880 Yes? 368 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,634 Humphrey, sorry to ring you so late. 369 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,271 I didn't interrupt you in the middle of dinner, did I? 370 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:07,995 No, we finished dinner some while ago. 371 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:09,718 - Oh, good. - What's the time? 372 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:11,353 Er, two a.m. 373 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,389 - Good God, what's the crisis? - No. No crisis. 374 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,791 I'm going through my boxes, and I knew you'd still be hard at it. 375 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,192 Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Nose to the grindstone. 376 00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:24,318 Well, I've just come across this Data Base paper. 377 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,471 Oh, you've found... you've read it! 378 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,872 Thought I'd bettertell you I'm not happy with it. 379 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,430 You'll welcome an opportunity to work on something else. 380 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,831 - You didn't mind my calling you? - No. Not at all Minister. 381 00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:38,997 Always a pleasure to hearfrom you. 382 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,792 I meant to tell him to see me about it before Cabinet. 383 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,393 Don't ring him now. 384 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:48,991 You're right, it is a bit late. 385 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,831 Give him anotherten minutes. 386 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,037 If you could be fairly quick. 387 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,839 - He does have Cabinet at 10. - I can be very quick. 388 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,037 The word "No" is one of the shortest in the language. 389 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,071 Sorry to be so late. Lots of reading to do this morning. 390 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,995 Good morning, Bernard. Thank you, George. 391 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,633 Now, Humphrey, the Data Base. 392 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,277 Have you drafted yoursafeguards? 393 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,948 Well, Minister, I quite appreciate your intention 394 00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:25,759 and fully agree that there is need forsafeguards, 395 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:27,433 but is this 396 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,517 - the rightway to achieve it? - Well, it's my way. 397 00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:33,519 One. 398 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:37,158 That's my decision, anyway. 399 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,194 Well this is not really the time forall sorts of reasons. 400 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:43,833 Two. 401 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:46,833 It's the perfect time. 402 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,515 Safeguards should be developed alongside systems, 403 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,079 that's common sense. 404 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,358 We tried all this before and we ran into all sorts of difficulties. 405 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:56,749 Three. 406 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:58,589 Such as? 407 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,517 - Well, technical, for instance. - No. No problems. 408 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,831 We can use the same basicfile interrogation programme 409 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,958 as the U.S. State Dept. And the Swedish Ministry of the Interior. 410 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:10,753 No problems there. 411 00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:14,715 Yes, but there are also formidable administrative problems. 412 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,511 And all departments are affected. 413 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,469 - An interdepartmental committee... - No. No. No, Humphrey. 414 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,719 You'll find that the existing security procedures are adequate. 415 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,633 This is simply an extension. Anything more? 416 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,031 - Well, yes, Minister. - Legal problems, forexample? 417 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,551 - Yes, Minister. - Good, good. 418 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,429 - Do we have the legal power? - I'll answer it. We have. 419 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,592 All personnel affected are bound by theirstaff agreements. 420 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,309 Yes, but Minister, there will be a need forextra staffing. 421 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,189 Will you be able to get it through the parliamentary party? 422 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:56,113 Yes, I'm quite sure. Anything further? 423 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,157 I don't think so. We can go ahead then. 424 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:04,559 You're very silent. 425 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,599 You don't seem to realise the amount of work that's involved. 426 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,069 Haven't you examined safeguards before? 427 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:12,719 Underanothergovernment? 428 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,555 I remembersome written answers to parliamentary questions. 429 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,869 Well, in the first place as we've agreed that question is not... 430 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,358 In the second place, if there had been investigations, 431 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,795 which there haven't ornot necessarily, 432 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,428 orl am not at liberty to say whetherthere have, 433 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,591 there would have been a project team, which, 434 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,035 had it existed, on which I cannot comment, 435 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,634 which would nowhave disbanded if it had existed 436 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,870 and the members returned to do theirdepartments, 437 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,190 if indeed there had been any such members. 438 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,398 Ornot as the case may be. 439 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,674 - Quite so, Minister. - I want these safeguards 440 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,637 made available immediately. 441 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,155 - Minister, it is not possible. - It is. 442 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:52,833 - It isn't. - It is. 443 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,353 - It isn't. - It is. 444 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,193 - It isn't. - 'Tis, 'tis, 'tis, 'tis, 'tis, 'tis. 445 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,480 Just to remind you, you have Cabinet at 10.00, 446 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,756 the Anglo American Society at one, 447 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,117 and the "World in Focus" interview, this evening. 448 00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:09,750 - Can't you get me out of the lunch? - It's been announced. 449 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:11,353 I see... I suppose I... 450 00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:15,714 - What's that you just said? - We can't get out of it. 451 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,110 It's been announced, it's in the programme. 452 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:20,319 Thank you, Bernard. 453 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,158 Thank you very much. 454 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:24,833 Forwhat, Minister? 455 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,315 Foreverything, Bernard. 456 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,998 And our Man on the Spot tonight is the Right HonourableJim Hacker, 457 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,151 MinisterforAdministrative Affairs, 458 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,710 the man at the heart of the Big Brothercomputercontroversy. 459 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:49,991 He's talking to Godfrey Finch. 460 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,789 Minister, as you know there's been an outcry this week about 461 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,669 the dossierthat the Civil Service bureaucracy has apparently 462 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,718 been building up on every citizen in this country. 463 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,839 Now, it's rumoured that this is not in fact, yourown policy, 464 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,390 that you'd like to have safeguards forthe individual citizen, 465 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,950 but that you are being totally frustrated at every stage 466 00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:14,634 of the game by the Civil Service machine. 467 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,036 You know, Godfrey, 468 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,595 there's a lot of nonsence talked about the Civil Service. 469 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,196 It's a marvellous, efficient, professional organisation, 470 00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:28,511 capable of enormous energy and speed. 471 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,116 It's staffed by a lot of talented, dedicated people 472 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,676 who do everything in theirpower to help the Government 473 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:37,512 make it's policies into law. 474 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,353 Well, thank you forthe commercial, Minister. 475 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,309 Perhaps we can start the programme now? 476 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,399 The fact of the matter is that the Civil Service and I 477 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,154 are in complete accord overthis whole business 478 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,151 and I'm happy to announce that we're nowready 479 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,518 to put ourproposals into publication. 480 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,750 In fact, tonight I can say that from Septemberthe first, 481 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,593 every citizen of the U.K. Will have the absolute right 482 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,433 to inspect his personal file and check any information 483 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,114 that he has eversupplied to the Government. 484 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:11,633 Secondly, 485 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,837 no civil servant will be allowed to examine personal files 486 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,958 from anotherdepartment, without written authorityfrom a Minister. 487 00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:22,749 And I shall be announcing in the House next week legislation 488 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,356 enabling citizens to take legal action against any civil servant 489 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,273 who gains unauthorised access to his file. 490 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,517 Encouraging, Minister. 491 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,997 Why did you not say so first, and put people's minds at rest? 492 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,153 I didn't believe that the Civil Service could meet ourdeadlines. 493 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,390 But they've convinced me that they can. 494 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,710 And, in fact, my Permanent Secretary 495 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:46,472 has staked his reputation on it. 496 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,394 And if not, heads will roll... 497 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:55,837 Anyway, Assistant Heads. 498 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,915 Thank you very much, Minister. 499 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,719 - It can't be done. - It's been announced on TV. 500 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,236 Bernard, what did you make of our Minister's performance? 501 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,756 Well, I... I think it's check mate, Sir Humphrey. 502 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,390 See me on the box last night, Humphrey? 503 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,399 Of course, Minister. 504 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,630 Howwas I? Good? 505 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,353 A most remarkable performance, Minister, if I may say so. 506 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,954 - You may, you may. - Thank you, Minister. 507 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,917 We have been working very hard all night, 508 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,348 and I'm happy to be able to tell you thatwe have come up 509 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,830 with some draft proposals which would enable you to achieve 510 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,389 yourdesired objectives by the stated dates. 511 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:01,675 Well done. 512 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,230 I told the nation how splendid you were and I was right. 513 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,552 - I had every confidence in you. - Quite so, Minister. 514 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,672 You must have had quite a night. 515 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,589 - Yes, Minister, quite a night! - Let's see yourproposals. 516 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,108 Here they are. 517 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,438 And here are mine. 518 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,551 You have specific proposals too? 519 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,193 Oh, indeed I have. 520 00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:30,636 Now, Humphrey, you read out what you've got on safeguards, 521 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,837 and I'll read out what I've got and we'll see how they compare. 522 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,955 "Personal data 1A: 523 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,359 Safeguards must be applied with reference to... 524 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:44,788 Two criteria. 525 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,753 The need to know and the right to know. 526 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,910 1A1. The need to know 527 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,352 only those officials... 528 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,637 forwhom the information was submitted may be deemed, 529 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,360 prime facie, to have a need to know. 530 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,075 We seem to be of the same mind, Humphrey. 531 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:05,468 Indeed, Minister. 532 00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:09,429 Where did those proposals come from? 533 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:16,628 Minister? 534 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:18,993 Can you hearme? 535 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,273 Where did those proposals come from? 536 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,550 Humphrey, my lips are sealed.