1 00:00:45,767 --> 00:00:48,726 What time is the Minister recording this broadcast? 2 00:00:48,887 --> 00:00:50,320 Two p.m., Sir Humphrey. 3 00:00:50,487 --> 00:00:53,479 Can't you stop him referring to the Solihull project? 4 00:00:53,647 --> 00:00:55,558 - There's not a hope. - Oh, God. 5 00:00:55,727 --> 00:00:58,366 "It's a shining example of collaboration 6 00:00:58,527 --> 00:01:00,677 between government and industry". 7 00:01:00,847 --> 00:01:03,805 - How could he think that? - You told him itwas. 8 00:01:05,487 --> 00:01:07,239 Can a 74 million building project 9 00:01:07,407 --> 00:01:10,479 in the middle of a city, be swept underthe carpet? 10 00:01:10,807 --> 00:01:14,482 - We'll use the Official Secrets - A secret? It's so huge. 11 00:01:14,647 --> 00:01:16,842 It's a big secret, Bernard. 12 00:01:17,007 --> 00:01:19,441 But you can't use the Official Secrets Act 13 00:01:19,607 --> 00:01:21,677 with something everybody knows about? 14 00:01:21,967 --> 00:01:26,836 The Official Secrets Act is not to protect secrets, but officials. 15 00:01:28,407 --> 00:01:30,637 Why haven't you allowed me to show 16 00:01:30,807 --> 00:01:34,482 the Solihull Report to the Minister, tell him the truth? 17 00:01:34,927 --> 00:01:36,280 He hasn't asked. 18 00:01:36,447 --> 00:01:39,439 Why bothera Minister ifhe doesn'twant to know? 19 00:01:39,607 --> 00:01:41,962 But how could he ask ifhe doesn't know? 20 00:01:42,207 --> 00:01:43,560 Quite so. 21 00:01:43,727 --> 00:01:46,924 It's not that I'm questioning yourjudgement but... 22 00:01:47,087 --> 00:01:48,805 - But? - But why? 23 00:01:49,127 --> 00:01:52,199 Because, Bernard, the Solihull Report contained 24 00:01:52,367 --> 00:01:55,803 a paragraph casting doubt on the financial soundness 25 00:01:55,967 --> 00:01:59,164 of Michael Bradley and Sloane Enterprises Ltd. 26 00:01:59,327 --> 00:02:03,081 And the report's foresight had some insight in the light ofhindsight? 27 00:02:03,367 --> 00:02:04,436 What? 28 00:02:04,687 --> 00:02:07,406 If it said that Michael Bradley was going to go bust? 29 00:02:07,567 --> 00:02:09,558 Please, Bernard, watch your language. 30 00:02:10,127 --> 00:02:13,881 The point is that, by the time the Report came out, I was so... 31 00:02:14,047 --> 00:02:17,278 orratherthe Department was so committed to Bradley 32 00:02:17,447 --> 00:02:21,076 that it seemed worth taking the risk to see the project through. 33 00:02:21,247 --> 00:02:24,239 If the Ministerknows this partnerwas going bust, 34 00:02:24,407 --> 00:02:26,967 he wouldn't make a broadcast about it. 35 00:02:27,167 --> 00:02:31,365 Ministers should neverknow more than they need to know. 36 00:02:31,607 --> 00:02:33,086 Then they can't tell anyone. 37 00:02:34,687 --> 00:02:36,405 Like secret agents. 38 00:02:36,767 --> 00:02:38,359 They could be captured and tortured. 39 00:02:38,527 --> 00:02:39,880 By terrorists? 40 00:02:40,047 --> 00:02:41,958 By the BBC, Bernard. 41 00:02:42,807 --> 00:02:46,402 The bank doesn't know whetherornot to foreclose. 42 00:02:46,567 --> 00:02:49,843 I'll dine with Sir Desmond Glazebrook, theirChairman. 43 00:02:50,047 --> 00:02:51,799 We might manage to cook something up. 44 00:02:51,967 --> 00:02:53,639 Why don't you go to a restaurant? 45 00:02:55,527 --> 00:02:57,836 Anyway, in the meantime, come what may, 46 00:02:58,007 --> 00:03:01,841 the Ministermust not refer to the Solihull Project on the air. 47 00:03:02,007 --> 00:03:05,443 Sir Humphrey, this is a bit of a coverup, isn't it? 48 00:03:05,687 --> 00:03:06,756 Certainly not. 49 00:03:06,927 --> 00:03:10,522 It is responsible discretion exercised in the national interest 50 00:03:10,687 --> 00:03:14,839 to prevent unnecessary disclosure of eminently justifiable procedures 51 00:03:15,007 --> 00:03:19,205 in which untimely revelation could severely impairpublic confidence. 52 00:03:19,367 --> 00:03:21,198 Oh, I see. It's like Watergate? 53 00:03:21,367 --> 00:03:22,367 Bernard! 54 00:03:24,207 --> 00:03:27,677 If you wish to leave the Service and become a BBC interviewer, 55 00:03:27,847 --> 00:03:30,566 - you have only to apply. - I'm sorry, but... 56 00:03:30,727 --> 00:03:32,683 Howwas Watergate different exactly? 57 00:03:32,847 --> 00:03:35,520 Watergate happened in America, Bernard! 58 00:03:36,327 --> 00:03:38,124 Oh yes, yes. I see. 59 00:03:39,487 --> 00:03:41,637 - Good morning, Minister. - Good morning. 60 00:03:41,807 --> 00:03:43,604 Morning, Bernard. Sorry I'm late. 61 00:03:43,767 --> 00:03:45,644 Put them on the desk, George. 62 00:03:45,807 --> 00:03:49,083 I don'twant to be late at Broadcasting House. 63 00:03:49,247 --> 00:03:52,364 What's the broadcast all about? NATO, wasn't it? 64 00:03:52,527 --> 00:03:54,438 No, partherships in industry. 65 00:03:54,927 --> 00:03:57,760 Oh, yes. I knew itwas something like that. 66 00:03:58,287 --> 00:04:00,437 - Who else is in it? - It's all in there. 67 00:04:00,607 --> 00:04:02,802 An Employer and a Trades Unionist. 68 00:04:03,247 --> 00:04:04,646 Joe Morgan? 69 00:04:04,807 --> 00:04:07,719 Wasn't he the TUC representative on the Solihull project? 70 00:04:07,887 --> 00:04:09,036 Er, Minister... 71 00:04:10,087 --> 00:04:11,236 Yes, Humphrey? 72 00:04:11,407 --> 00:04:15,036 You are not proposing to refer to the Solihull project on the air? 73 00:04:15,207 --> 00:04:17,675 Yes. It's a shining example of cooperation 74 00:04:17,847 --> 00:04:19,803 between the Government and industry. 75 00:04:19,967 --> 00:04:22,765 But I would be much happier if itwere omitted. 76 00:04:22,927 --> 00:04:23,927 Why? 77 00:04:24,087 --> 00:04:26,647 Don't you think it's ratherpremature? 78 00:04:26,807 --> 00:04:29,367 Certainly not. Building started months ago. 79 00:04:29,767 --> 00:04:32,645 Exactly. Ratherout of date, in fact. 80 00:04:32,807 --> 00:04:34,718 Premature and out of date? 81 00:04:34,887 --> 00:04:36,718 Well, untimely. 82 00:04:36,887 --> 00:04:39,640 Would it be uninteresting to the general public? 83 00:04:39,807 --> 00:04:41,798 No. It's something that's going on. 84 00:04:41,967 --> 00:04:44,003 - Extremely interesting. - Yes. Quite so. 85 00:04:44,167 --> 00:04:46,158 So interesting that there is a danger 86 00:04:46,327 --> 00:04:49,205 that it might obscure yourmain point, perhaps. 87 00:04:49,487 --> 00:04:51,045 What is my main point? 88 00:04:52,607 --> 00:04:55,041 Bernard, what's the Minister's main point? 89 00:04:55,247 --> 00:04:58,762 Private projects are more socially responsible with government money, 90 00:04:58,927 --> 00:05:02,124 and government projects are more efficientwith private investment. 91 00:05:02,287 --> 00:05:04,562 You see? It underlines my main point. 92 00:05:04,727 --> 00:05:06,524 You really are a wet blanket. 93 00:05:06,687 --> 00:05:08,678 Just go about stirring up apathy. 94 00:05:08,927 --> 00:05:11,395 Minister, I must seriously advise you 95 00:05:11,567 --> 00:05:13,922 with all the earnestness at my command, 96 00:05:14,087 --> 00:05:17,079 not to referto the Solihull Project on the air. 97 00:05:17,247 --> 00:05:18,316 Why? 98 00:05:18,767 --> 00:05:20,564 - What? - I said, why? 99 00:05:20,967 --> 00:05:22,036 - Why? - Why? 100 00:05:22,647 --> 00:05:23,647 Well, Minister... 101 00:05:23,807 --> 00:05:26,799 Are you planning to take the credit forthis yourself? 102 00:05:27,127 --> 00:05:30,278 At the European Convention of Government administration. 103 00:05:30,447 --> 00:05:33,325 Yourspeech will make very good reading. 104 00:05:33,487 --> 00:05:35,364 Well, a fewfacts of life. 105 00:05:35,927 --> 00:05:39,397 Politicians are responsible ultimately to the people, 106 00:05:39,567 --> 00:05:42,684 and we get the credit. Not Civil Servants. 107 00:05:42,847 --> 00:05:46,886 I would be happyforyou to have the "credit" forthis project. 108 00:05:47,047 --> 00:05:50,119 But, I must beg, beseech and implore you not today. 109 00:05:50,287 --> 00:05:53,404 No, it's no good. I'm not going to fall for it. 110 00:05:53,567 --> 00:05:56,365 I'm going to get all the political capital of this. 111 00:05:56,527 --> 00:05:58,483 I know a good thing when I see one. 112 00:05:58,647 --> 00:06:00,603 - Please, do listen to... - No. No. No. 113 00:06:00,767 --> 00:06:02,166 - Minister, p... - No, 114 00:06:02,927 --> 00:06:04,201 Humpy. 115 00:06:09,087 --> 00:06:10,440 - What? - What? 116 00:06:14,447 --> 00:06:17,644 If it had been up to me, I'd help out like a shot. 117 00:06:18,087 --> 00:06:19,122 Quite so. 118 00:06:19,287 --> 00:06:21,755 It's not the bank's fault if some idiot Minister 119 00:06:21,927 --> 00:06:24,760 gets into bed with a kid, who runs with the money. 120 00:06:24,927 --> 00:06:27,395 That Ministerwasn't entirely to blame. 121 00:06:27,567 --> 00:06:29,876 There were extenuating circumstances. 122 00:06:30,047 --> 00:06:33,357 This Bradley chap looked very sound at the time. 123 00:06:33,527 --> 00:06:37,042 But you wouldn't have done a damn fool thing like that. 124 00:06:37,767 --> 00:06:38,995 Would you? 125 00:06:39,247 --> 00:06:42,717 When it looked like Bradley wanted a loan thatwas one thing. 126 00:06:42,887 --> 00:06:44,684 But nowhe can't pay his bills. 127 00:06:44,847 --> 00:06:46,200 Well, he is unlikely 128 00:06:46,367 --> 00:06:49,882 to fulfil his financial undertakings to Her Majesty's Government. 129 00:06:50,047 --> 00:06:51,765 Can't pay his bills, you mean. 130 00:06:52,247 --> 00:06:56,479 And Her Majesty's Government's undertakings go down with him. 131 00:06:56,647 --> 00:06:57,647 Yes. 132 00:06:57,807 --> 00:07:01,482 Unless a reputable bank were to take overthe contract 133 00:07:01,647 --> 00:07:05,401 from Bradley with a view to participating in a project 134 00:07:05,567 --> 00:07:09,355 which Her Majesty's Government is determined to make profitable. 135 00:07:09,527 --> 00:07:10,527 Quite so. 136 00:07:10,687 --> 00:07:13,155 More Sancerre for Her Majesty's Government? 137 00:07:14,727 --> 00:07:17,287 Well, like I say, it's up to my Board. 138 00:07:17,447 --> 00:07:19,483 Could go eitherway, quite frankly. 139 00:07:19,887 --> 00:07:21,718 - Could go eitherway. - I see. 140 00:07:23,007 --> 00:07:26,317 Incidentally, to change the subject completely, 141 00:07:26,487 --> 00:07:29,240 you rememberthe new Ministry Copartnership 142 00:07:29,407 --> 00:07:31,363 Commission you mentioned? 143 00:07:31,527 --> 00:07:32,642 Indeed. 144 00:07:32,807 --> 00:07:35,446 The Chairmanship hasn't been filled yet? 145 00:07:36,847 --> 00:07:39,964 - Not yet, Desmond. - Because if itwere to be... 146 00:07:40,127 --> 00:07:41,845 should one be offered... 147 00:07:42,047 --> 00:07:44,766 not forthe money, I mean, what's 8,000 a year? 148 00:07:45,047 --> 00:07:47,561 160 a week. Part time. 149 00:07:47,727 --> 00:07:48,876 Quite. 150 00:07:49,367 --> 00:07:52,040 But itwould be a fascinating... 151 00:07:52,207 --> 00:07:54,880 Has anything been decided, informally? 152 00:07:55,207 --> 00:07:57,846 You're looking around fora couple of quangos, 153 00:07:58,007 --> 00:07:59,440 and I can tell you, 154 00:08:01,047 --> 00:08:04,244 in complete confidence, that yourname is 155 00:08:06,407 --> 00:08:07,920 on the shortlist. 156 00:08:09,407 --> 00:08:10,635 On the shortlist? 157 00:08:11,367 --> 00:08:14,518 Quangos can't suddenly be in short supply, can they? 158 00:08:14,847 --> 00:08:17,236 There's report in today's Telegraph. 159 00:08:17,407 --> 00:08:18,886 "The Quango Jungle: 160 00:08:20,287 --> 00:08:23,279 There are still around 8,000 paid appointments 161 00:08:23,447 --> 00:08:27,076 within the gift of Ministers to Quasi Autonomous NGOs, 162 00:08:27,247 --> 00:08:30,398 - at five million pounds a year". - You'll have two orthree spare. 163 00:08:30,567 --> 00:08:32,683 There's certainly a lot of them around, 164 00:08:32,847 --> 00:08:35,407 the point is finding one that is appropriate. 165 00:08:35,687 --> 00:08:38,155 There has to be some reason to appoint you. 166 00:08:39,327 --> 00:08:43,878 What about the Advisory Committee of Dental Establishments? 167 00:08:44,207 --> 00:08:47,085 - Know anything about teeth? - I'm a banker. 168 00:08:48,407 --> 00:08:51,160 And that rules out the Milk Marketing Board, too. 169 00:08:51,367 --> 00:08:52,367 Right. 170 00:08:53,247 --> 00:08:56,478 How about the Dumping at Sea Representations Panel? 171 00:08:56,647 --> 00:08:59,241 - Do you live nearthe sea? - Knightsbridge. 172 00:09:02,487 --> 00:09:03,920 Just behind Harrods. 173 00:09:05,607 --> 00:09:07,165 Not nearenough. 174 00:09:07,407 --> 00:09:11,286 That more or less rules out the Clyde River Purification Board too. 175 00:09:11,607 --> 00:09:13,438 - Rump steak? - That's forme. 176 00:09:13,607 --> 00:09:15,882 Meat Marketing Board. Know anything about meat? 177 00:09:16,247 --> 00:09:17,521 I eat it. 178 00:09:18,207 --> 00:09:19,526 Not enough. 179 00:09:19,927 --> 00:09:21,997 It rules out the Meat and Liverstock Commission. 180 00:09:22,167 --> 00:09:24,556 - Doversole. Sir? - White Fish Authority? 181 00:09:24,727 --> 00:09:25,727 Potatoes? 182 00:09:25,887 --> 00:09:27,798 Potato Marketing Board? 183 00:09:28,727 --> 00:09:32,402 The Governors of the National Vegetable Research Station? 184 00:09:32,807 --> 00:09:35,765 The National Biological Standards Board? 185 00:09:35,927 --> 00:09:38,282 Is that my salad. Thank you, Robert. 186 00:09:39,487 --> 00:09:42,923 The Arable Crops and Forage Board? 187 00:09:43,807 --> 00:09:46,765 The Food and Drink Training Board? 188 00:09:47,007 --> 00:09:48,963 Some French mustard, please? 189 00:09:49,127 --> 00:09:53,200 What about the Food Additives and Contaminants committee? 190 00:09:54,367 --> 00:09:56,927 I know very little about any of those. 191 00:09:57,367 --> 00:10:00,279 - Well, what do you know about? - Nothing. 192 00:10:01,167 --> 00:10:03,556 Nothing really. I'm a banker. 193 00:10:06,687 --> 00:10:08,120 This is not easy. 194 00:10:12,087 --> 00:10:14,840 The Fire Services Examinations Board? 195 00:10:18,687 --> 00:10:20,405 St. John's Ambulance? 196 00:10:21,967 --> 00:10:24,037 - French mustard, sir. - Thank you. 197 00:10:24,247 --> 00:10:27,125 What about the Plant Varieties and Seeds Tribunal? 198 00:10:27,647 --> 00:10:29,763 Dammit, Humphrey, I'm a banker. 199 00:10:30,087 --> 00:10:31,281 Thank you. 200 00:10:32,407 --> 00:10:35,399 There must be some minority group that you can represent. 201 00:10:36,327 --> 00:10:37,476 Bankers. 202 00:10:38,367 --> 00:10:41,643 You see, the ideal quango appointee is a black, Welsh, 203 00:10:41,807 --> 00:10:44,116 disabled woman Trade Unionist. 204 00:10:45,807 --> 00:10:48,526 We're all looking around forone of them. 205 00:10:48,927 --> 00:10:51,805 - You don't happen to know any? - No. 206 00:10:51,967 --> 00:10:53,480 No. Well... 207 00:10:53,647 --> 00:10:57,879 It all boils down to the Industry Copartnership Commission. 208 00:10:58,047 --> 00:10:59,958 I'd find that quite acceptable. 209 00:11:00,127 --> 00:11:02,960 Well, it is within the gift of my Minister. 210 00:11:03,527 --> 00:11:06,280 And you need only put in appearances twice a month. 211 00:11:06,447 --> 00:11:07,675 Lots of papers? 212 00:11:07,847 --> 00:11:10,919 Yes, but itwouldn't be awfully necessary to read them. 213 00:11:11,967 --> 00:11:14,083 I wouldn't have anything to say at the meetings. 214 00:11:14,247 --> 00:11:17,398 Splendid. You're just the chap I'm looking for. 215 00:11:22,887 --> 00:11:24,923 Broadcasting House, please. 216 00:11:35,687 --> 00:11:37,757 Sorry to keep you, George. 217 00:11:37,927 --> 00:11:41,078 When you drop me, please take Mr. Wooly on to the House. 218 00:11:41,527 --> 00:11:44,121 Why Humphrey wants to stop me 219 00:11:44,287 --> 00:11:46,847 mentioning the Solihull Project on the air? 220 00:11:47,007 --> 00:11:49,919 Didn't you think he gave 6 or 7 convincing reasons? 221 00:11:50,087 --> 00:11:51,486 No. Did you? 222 00:11:51,647 --> 00:11:53,524 I think he knows what he's doing. 223 00:11:53,687 --> 00:11:55,166 Sure he does. 224 00:11:55,367 --> 00:11:57,198 I only wish I knew what he was doing. 225 00:11:57,367 --> 00:12:00,439 I'm sure if Sir Humphrey advises something, then, 226 00:12:00,607 --> 00:12:03,405 whateverhe does advise is advisable. 227 00:12:05,207 --> 00:12:07,721 - What do you advise? - It's not forme to advise, 228 00:12:07,887 --> 00:12:10,447 but I would advise you that you would be 229 00:12:10,607 --> 00:12:13,724 well advised to follow Sir Humphrey's advice. 230 00:12:14,887 --> 00:12:15,887 Why? 231 00:12:16,167 --> 00:12:18,237 Well, it's just that... 232 00:12:18,407 --> 00:12:20,557 certain projects have certain aspects which, 233 00:12:20,727 --> 00:12:24,322 with sensitive handling, given reasonable discretion, 234 00:12:24,487 --> 00:12:28,799 when events permit, there is no prima facie reason why, 235 00:12:29,047 --> 00:12:32,756 with appropriate give and take, if if all goes well, 236 00:12:32,927 --> 00:12:37,284 in the fullness of time, when the moment is ripe, er... 237 00:12:38,687 --> 00:12:40,245 You're blathering. 238 00:12:40,927 --> 00:12:43,646 - Yes, Minister. - Why are you blathering? 239 00:12:43,807 --> 00:12:45,365 It's my job, Minister. 240 00:12:46,607 --> 00:12:49,758 An example of this is going on up in Solihull now. 241 00:12:49,967 --> 00:12:51,923 Government money and private investment 242 00:12:52,087 --> 00:12:54,043 working together in a real partnership. 243 00:12:54,207 --> 00:12:55,435 Claptrap. 244 00:12:55,607 --> 00:12:59,202 And it's symbolic of the way this Government is working. 245 00:12:59,367 --> 00:13:02,962 I've taken a personal interest in the Solihull Project because... 246 00:13:03,127 --> 00:13:07,086 Not justwords, it is actually there in bricks and mortar. 247 00:13:07,447 --> 00:13:10,166 A concrete example, if I may put it like that, 248 00:13:10,327 --> 00:13:12,966 of the fact that ourprinciples really work. 249 00:13:13,247 --> 00:13:16,603 Thank you, Minister. One lastword, Mr. Conway? 250 00:13:16,967 --> 00:13:20,880 There's nothing wrong with the principle of partnership... 251 00:13:21,047 --> 00:13:23,436 Provided that there's no interference 252 00:13:23,607 --> 00:13:27,156 in management decisions from the State orthe workforce. 253 00:13:27,327 --> 00:13:29,477 Thank you, Mr. Conway. Joe Morgan? 254 00:13:29,687 --> 00:13:32,406 Dear, oh dear, oh dear. 255 00:13:33,087 --> 00:13:35,681 We all know that Mr. Conway is talking 256 00:13:35,847 --> 00:13:38,122 out of date capitalist claptrap. 257 00:13:39,047 --> 00:13:41,481 If partnership is to mean anything, it must mean 258 00:13:41,647 --> 00:13:45,435 an equal partnership between unions, government and industry. 259 00:13:45,607 --> 00:13:47,802 - In that order. - Afinal word, Minister? 260 00:13:47,967 --> 00:13:51,596 - There's no need to be offensive. - Gentlemen, please. 261 00:13:51,847 --> 00:13:53,565 We're all in agreement. 262 00:13:53,727 --> 00:13:56,878 We've shown that if we can work together 263 00:13:57,047 --> 00:13:59,163 we can forge a new Britain. 264 00:13:59,327 --> 00:14:03,036 And it's a pleasure to talk to two of the principal forgers... 265 00:14:03,207 --> 00:14:05,004 principal participants. 266 00:14:05,247 --> 00:14:06,247 Thank you. 267 00:14:06,407 --> 00:14:09,558 James Hacker, Minister forAdministrative Affairs, 268 00:14:09,727 --> 00:14:13,959 was talking with George Conway, from the Construction Federation, 269 00:14:14,127 --> 00:14:18,484 and Joe Morgan, from the Commercial and Administrative Workers Union. 270 00:14:21,847 --> 00:14:24,884 Splendid. Thank you all. Jean will take you to Hospitality. 271 00:14:25,047 --> 00:14:27,481 - Was it really all right? - First class. 272 00:14:27,647 --> 00:14:29,319 Most interesting, Minister. 273 00:14:30,607 --> 00:14:34,680 Can we edit that awful Hacker waffle down to two and a half? 274 00:14:35,007 --> 00:14:36,599 Leave the Solihull bit. 275 00:14:37,967 --> 00:14:40,800 - Joe, see you later. - Yes, George. 276 00:14:40,967 --> 00:14:43,162 I hope you won't mind my mentioning it, 277 00:14:43,327 --> 00:14:45,397 Mr. Harker, but could you put a word in 278 00:14:45,567 --> 00:14:48,525 formy members' claim for a special Birmingham allowance? 279 00:14:48,687 --> 00:14:52,566 I don't think I can conduct Trade Union negotiations in a BBC studio. 280 00:14:52,847 --> 00:14:55,680 And that's a matter forthe Employment... 281 00:14:55,847 --> 00:14:58,042 - But a word from you... - No, I'm sorry. 282 00:14:58,207 --> 00:15:01,882 We'd have a Manchesterallowance, Plymouth allowance, 283 00:15:02,047 --> 00:15:03,799 Chipping Sodbury allowance... 284 00:15:03,967 --> 00:15:08,404 Afterthis broadcast people might ask about the Solihull project, 285 00:15:08,567 --> 00:15:10,558 wanting to knowmore about it. 286 00:15:10,727 --> 00:15:11,876 I hope they do. 287 00:15:12,047 --> 00:15:16,677 But as we know, there are some things betternot found out. 288 00:15:18,407 --> 00:15:20,477 I'm sure we understand one another. 289 00:15:22,127 --> 00:15:23,196 Do we? 290 00:15:24,047 --> 00:15:25,685 Something in youreye? 291 00:15:26,607 --> 00:15:28,882 - Just a gleam. - What? 292 00:15:29,167 --> 00:15:30,964 Oh, come off it, Hacker. 293 00:15:31,127 --> 00:15:33,800 We've got you by the short and curlies. 294 00:15:34,607 --> 00:15:37,121 And I'm asking 10 % below London allowance, 295 00:15:37,287 --> 00:15:40,006 and we'll settle for 30 % below. 296 00:15:40,167 --> 00:15:42,317 Give you the credit forbeating us down. 297 00:15:42,487 --> 00:15:45,797 No allowance. You'd better resign youself to that. 298 00:15:46,167 --> 00:15:49,239 I'm not the one who will have to resign. 299 00:15:49,607 --> 00:15:52,360 - What are you talking about? - The Solihull Project. 300 00:15:52,527 --> 00:15:55,519 I could hardly believe you took all the credit for it. 301 00:15:55,687 --> 00:15:59,157 Great courage, of course, but whateverpossessed you? 302 00:15:59,327 --> 00:16:02,524 "Cannons to the right ofhim, Cannons to the left ofhim, 303 00:16:02,687 --> 00:16:05,406 Into the Valley of death rode Mr. Hacker". 304 00:16:12,927 --> 00:16:14,360 How did it go, sir? 305 00:16:15,447 --> 00:16:17,722 Oh, very well. Very well. 306 00:16:18,247 --> 00:16:21,319 I was talking about government industry cooperation. 307 00:16:22,047 --> 00:16:25,039 There's a very interesting project in the Midlands. 308 00:16:25,207 --> 00:16:29,405 I don't suppose you'd have heard about it, but it's very interesting 309 00:16:30,327 --> 00:16:32,204 if you know the background. 310 00:16:32,407 --> 00:16:34,716 You don't mean the Solihull Project, sir? 311 00:16:35,007 --> 00:16:36,963 Yes. You have heard about it. 312 00:16:39,687 --> 00:16:42,076 - What are you laughing about? - Nothing, sir. 313 00:16:45,527 --> 00:16:47,916 - What have you heard? - Nothing really, sir. 314 00:16:48,767 --> 00:16:50,723 It's a shining example of collaboration 315 00:16:50,887 --> 00:16:52,843 between government and industry. 316 00:16:55,167 --> 00:16:57,362 What do you know about all this? 317 00:16:57,527 --> 00:17:01,839 37 journeys between the Ministry and Mr. Michael Bradley's office, 318 00:17:02,007 --> 00:17:05,397 44 Farringdon Street, and 129 Birmingham Road, Solihull. 319 00:17:05,807 --> 00:17:07,365 37 journeys? Who with? 320 00:17:07,527 --> 00:17:10,803 Yourpredecessor, sir, and Sir Humphrey, mostly. 321 00:17:13,487 --> 00:17:16,126 Very cheerful they were, on the first few trips. 322 00:17:16,287 --> 00:17:19,120 They kept talking about shining examples 323 00:17:19,287 --> 00:17:21,926 of successful collaboration and such like. 324 00:17:22,447 --> 00:17:25,041 Then the gloom started to come down. 325 00:17:25,847 --> 00:17:28,725 - Gloom? - Well, no not gloom. 326 00:17:29,247 --> 00:17:31,363 More like desperation, really. 327 00:17:31,727 --> 00:17:33,638 Desperation? What about? 328 00:17:34,527 --> 00:17:36,722 You know the background, sir. 329 00:17:37,567 --> 00:17:39,239 Well, yes, yes... 330 00:17:40,247 --> 00:17:43,205 Any bit of the background you were thinking of? 331 00:17:43,527 --> 00:17:47,406 No. When something's fishy, it's just fishy, isn't it? 332 00:17:47,767 --> 00:17:50,486 You don't knowwhich bit the smell's coming from. 333 00:17:50,847 --> 00:17:53,919 - Fishy? - Well, I don't really know. 334 00:17:54,327 --> 00:17:57,399 Forall I know, Mr. Bradley may be quite kosher, 335 00:17:57,567 --> 00:18:00,684 despite everything Sir Humphrey said about him. 336 00:18:01,127 --> 00:18:03,516 You knowmore about all that than I do. 337 00:18:03,687 --> 00:18:04,961 I'm just the driver. 338 00:18:05,767 --> 00:18:07,200 Quite. Quite. 339 00:18:07,767 --> 00:18:09,598 I'm just the Minister. 340 00:18:10,407 --> 00:18:13,922 An allowance for Morgan's union is out of the question. 341 00:18:14,087 --> 00:18:16,203 But howwas the broadcast? 342 00:18:16,487 --> 00:18:18,523 Well, all right, I think. 343 00:18:18,687 --> 00:18:19,961 You think? 344 00:18:20,407 --> 00:18:23,240 I talked about the Solihull Project. 345 00:18:23,487 --> 00:18:25,921 And then I had second thoughts. 346 00:18:26,087 --> 00:18:27,805 Any particularreason? 347 00:18:28,207 --> 00:18:32,883 No... Humphrey, is everything all right about the Solihull Project? 348 00:18:33,207 --> 00:18:34,356 Yes, Minister. 349 00:18:34,527 --> 00:18:36,882 The building works proceed satisfactorily. 350 00:18:37,047 --> 00:18:39,561 No, no, no, that's not what I meant. 351 00:18:40,207 --> 00:18:43,085 - Is something going on? - Building is going on. 352 00:18:43,247 --> 00:18:44,521 No, no, Humphrey. 353 00:18:44,687 --> 00:18:46,564 Something's up, isn't it? 354 00:18:46,887 --> 00:18:48,878 - Yes indeed, Minister. - What? 355 00:18:49,047 --> 00:18:51,481 The 1st floor is up, and the 2nd flooralmost up. 356 00:18:51,647 --> 00:18:54,639 I'm talking about the whole basis of the thing. 357 00:18:54,807 --> 00:18:56,399 Oh, I see. 358 00:18:56,567 --> 00:19:00,003 - What can you tell me about? - As I understand it... 359 00:19:00,167 --> 00:19:02,601 The basis is an aggregate of gravel and cement on 360 00:19:02,767 --> 00:19:04,758 six feet ofbest builders rubble. 361 00:19:04,927 --> 00:19:07,680 You know I am talking about the finance. 362 00:19:07,847 --> 00:19:11,635 Ourcontractwith the construction company you mean? 363 00:19:11,807 --> 00:19:14,765 The stage payments are in accordance with all the usual... 364 00:19:14,927 --> 00:19:17,282 Humphrey! What is it that I don't know? 365 00:19:18,167 --> 00:19:22,001 - What precisely do you mean? - I don't know. 366 00:19:22,607 --> 00:19:24,723 That's just it, I don't know 367 00:19:24,887 --> 00:19:28,038 because I can't find what questions to ask you, 368 00:19:28,207 --> 00:19:31,165 and I don't knowwhat to ask you because I don't know. 369 00:19:31,327 --> 00:19:33,045 What is it that I don't know? 370 00:19:33,287 --> 00:19:36,279 Minister, I don't know what you don't know. 371 00:19:36,767 --> 00:19:38,519 It could be almost anything. 372 00:19:38,687 --> 00:19:41,679 - Your're keeping something from me. - Yes indeed. 373 00:19:41,887 --> 00:19:45,084 It is the Department's duty to protect the Minister 374 00:19:45,247 --> 00:19:47,966 from the great tide of irrelevant information 375 00:19:48,127 --> 00:19:51,358 that beats against the walls of this Department. 376 00:19:51,527 --> 00:19:53,563 There is something about the Solihull Project 377 00:19:53,727 --> 00:19:56,002 that I know I don't know and I know you know. 378 00:19:56,167 --> 00:19:58,237 I know Bernard knows. Joe Morgan knows. 379 00:19:58,407 --> 00:20:00,318 My own driverknows more than I do. 380 00:20:00,487 --> 00:20:03,923 Only poorJoe Soap who has to tell the public about it 381 00:20:04,087 --> 00:20:07,204 hasn't got a clue as to what's going on. 382 00:20:08,527 --> 00:20:10,757 Will you answer a simple question? 383 00:20:10,967 --> 00:20:13,356 Certainly, Minister. What is it? 384 00:20:14,087 --> 00:20:15,725 I don't know! 385 00:20:16,527 --> 00:20:18,597 If you tell me, I'll ask it! 386 00:20:19,007 --> 00:20:20,007 Well... 387 00:20:20,167 --> 00:20:22,556 - Yes, Frank? - Ourmeeting. 388 00:20:22,727 --> 00:20:25,116 - About my quango paper. - Come on in. 389 00:20:25,287 --> 00:20:28,563 - You've read Frank's paper? - Yes indeed, Minister. 390 00:20:29,127 --> 00:20:32,756 What did you think about ending the ministerial patronage? 391 00:20:32,927 --> 00:20:35,077 All those thousands of jobs forthe boys. 392 00:20:35,247 --> 00:20:37,681 Most original and imaginative. 393 00:20:38,127 --> 00:20:39,196 You liked it? 394 00:20:39,367 --> 00:20:42,723 Those are two of Humphrey's most damning criticisms. 395 00:20:43,007 --> 00:20:45,396 Itwould be a very popular political move. 396 00:20:45,567 --> 00:20:48,843 Hand the quango appointments overto Parliament. 397 00:20:49,007 --> 00:20:52,966 The best men forthe job instead of old chums, partyhacks. 398 00:20:53,127 --> 00:20:54,958 It should be legislated. 399 00:20:55,127 --> 00:20:57,925 - It is a novel proposal... - That's the otherkiller. 400 00:20:58,087 --> 00:21:00,681 But when a system is working smoothly... 401 00:21:00,847 --> 00:21:04,044 Smoothly! Look at this! Proposal forChairman 402 00:21:04,207 --> 00:21:07,279 of the new Industrial Coparthership Commission, 403 00:21:07,447 --> 00:21:09,836 Sir Desmond Glazebrook, I ask you! 404 00:21:10,007 --> 00:21:11,918 He's neverbeen in industry, 405 00:21:12,087 --> 00:21:15,284 and he's said unpleasant things about this government. 406 00:21:15,447 --> 00:21:17,677 Is that a smoothly operating system? 407 00:21:17,847 --> 00:21:20,600 - He would be an excellent... - He's a blithering idiot! 408 00:21:20,767 --> 00:21:24,396 - Yes, but an excellent Chairman. - I'm sorry, Humphrey. 409 00:21:24,567 --> 00:21:27,479 I am not going to appoint Sir Desmond Glazebrook. 410 00:21:27,647 --> 00:21:30,036 - Minister, you must. - No, no, no... 411 00:21:30,207 --> 00:21:33,040 - Please, Minister... - No way. No Glazebrook. 412 00:21:33,207 --> 00:21:35,163 Overmy dead body. Right? 413 00:21:35,407 --> 00:21:38,797 Minister, before you make yourfinal decision 414 00:21:40,647 --> 00:21:43,480 I think perhaps you ought to see this. 415 00:21:45,807 --> 00:21:47,798 "Report on the Solihull Project". 416 00:21:47,967 --> 00:21:49,525 Why is it top secret? 417 00:21:50,727 --> 00:21:52,365 "7.5 million pounds... 418 00:21:52,527 --> 00:21:54,563 probably bankrupt proceedings... 419 00:21:55,687 --> 00:21:58,042 inminent collapse of project"... well... 420 00:21:59,767 --> 00:22:02,042 Imminent collapse of project! 421 00:22:03,087 --> 00:22:04,645 Why didn't you tell me? 422 00:22:04,807 --> 00:22:07,765 I am conscious of the heavy burdens of youroffice. 423 00:22:07,927 --> 00:22:10,600 But this'll be all overthe front pages. 424 00:22:10,767 --> 00:22:13,042 It's a public scandal, a disaster. It's... 425 00:22:13,207 --> 00:22:14,879 - It's appalling... - Jim. 426 00:22:15,047 --> 00:22:18,278 It is dated before the election. You're in the clear. 427 00:22:18,447 --> 00:22:21,439 Yes, but unfortunately underthe convention 428 00:22:21,607 --> 00:22:24,440 of Ministerial responsability, the blame must fall... 429 00:22:24,607 --> 00:22:27,075 - Everyone will know itwasn't Jim. - Quite so. 430 00:22:27,247 --> 00:22:30,762 The principle of democratic accountability requires 431 00:22:30,927 --> 00:22:32,963 the occasional human sacrifice. 432 00:22:33,567 --> 00:22:36,240 When the pack is baying forblood... 433 00:22:36,407 --> 00:22:38,762 - Isn't that right? - He'll point to the dates... 434 00:22:38,927 --> 00:22:42,806 Oh, a lesserman might try to wriggle out of it. 435 00:22:42,967 --> 00:22:45,959 But there is only one honourable course open. 436 00:22:46,167 --> 00:22:48,886 As the Minister is well aware. 437 00:22:49,487 --> 00:22:51,398 Frank might have a point? 438 00:22:51,607 --> 00:22:54,405 Only today you have publicly identified yourself 439 00:22:54,567 --> 00:22:56,444 with the success of the project. 440 00:22:56,807 --> 00:22:58,877 The broadcast! When's it going out? 441 00:22:59,047 --> 00:23:01,356 It's due fortransmission about now. 442 00:23:01,527 --> 00:23:03,040 Get on to the BBC at once. 443 00:23:03,207 --> 00:23:05,198 - Stop it! - Stop what? Oh yes... 444 00:23:05,927 --> 00:23:08,999 I wish you luck but you know what the BBC are like. 445 00:23:09,167 --> 00:23:11,601 This is a crisis, this is a scandal... 446 00:23:11,767 --> 00:23:15,316 If you were to put it like that, they might... 447 00:23:15,487 --> 00:23:18,479 - Might what? - Move it to peak listening time. 448 00:23:20,247 --> 00:23:21,362 Any luck? 449 00:23:21,527 --> 00:23:25,645 Aperfect example of what can be done is going on up in Solihull. 450 00:23:25,807 --> 00:23:29,004 Government money and private investment in real partnership 451 00:23:29,167 --> 00:23:33,206 to me, symbolic of everything this Government is working for. 452 00:23:33,367 --> 00:23:36,882 I've taken a great personal interest in the Solihull project. 453 00:23:37,047 --> 00:23:40,960 It's not just words, it's actually there in bricks and mortar... 454 00:23:46,847 --> 00:23:49,919 "Symbolic of everything this Government is working for". 455 00:23:50,847 --> 00:23:53,281 How could you let me say all those things? 456 00:23:53,447 --> 00:23:55,403 Minister, I can only advise. 457 00:23:55,567 --> 00:23:58,035 I did advise. I advised most strongly. 458 00:23:58,207 --> 00:24:00,323 But when the adviser's advice is unheeded... 459 00:24:00,487 --> 00:24:02,205 All right, all right. 460 00:24:03,007 --> 00:24:04,804 Advise me now. 461 00:24:05,687 --> 00:24:07,200 Certainly, Minister. 462 00:24:07,487 --> 00:24:10,001 It is possible that the bank may take over 463 00:24:10,167 --> 00:24:12,601 the contract from Bradley and Sloane Enterprises Ltd. 464 00:24:12,767 --> 00:24:14,246 And all will be well. 465 00:24:14,407 --> 00:24:18,195 - The bank! Fine! Well... - The bank, however, is hesitant. 466 00:24:18,487 --> 00:24:21,320 But it so happens that the Director in charge 467 00:24:21,487 --> 00:24:23,876 is to retire next year and he's anxious 468 00:24:24,047 --> 00:24:25,924 to find anotherappointment... 469 00:24:26,087 --> 00:24:28,476 a chairmanship of a quango, for instance. 470 00:24:28,647 --> 00:24:29,841 Give him one! 471 00:24:30,047 --> 00:24:32,607 Give him that one you were reserving forthat idiot 472 00:24:32,767 --> 00:24:34,723 Sir Desmond Glazebrook. 473 00:24:35,607 --> 00:24:36,801 Who is the Director? 474 00:24:36,967 --> 00:24:38,116 Desmond Glazebrook. 475 00:24:42,527 --> 00:24:44,404 He's not a bad chap, really. 476 00:24:45,207 --> 00:24:47,323 He's always attacking the government. 477 00:24:47,487 --> 00:24:51,560 It does us good sometimes to appoint ouropponents. 478 00:24:51,727 --> 00:24:53,718 It's democratic, statesmanlike. 479 00:24:53,887 --> 00:24:56,401 Yes, that's a very good appointment. 480 00:24:56,567 --> 00:24:58,683 - But you can't. - Do shut up, Frank! 481 00:24:59,127 --> 00:25:00,765 Anybody else know about this? 482 00:25:00,927 --> 00:25:04,476 Apart from ourselves and the bank and Michael Bradley, 483 00:25:04,647 --> 00:25:06,603 the Union representative. 484 00:25:06,767 --> 00:25:08,325 Joe Morgan! Of course. 485 00:25:08,607 --> 00:25:12,316 That's whatwas behind his special Birmingham allowance claim. 486 00:25:12,647 --> 00:25:14,763 - Blackmail. - Quite so, Minister. 487 00:25:14,927 --> 00:25:16,918 Humphrey, I've been thinking. 488 00:25:17,167 --> 00:25:20,284 Desmond Glazebrook will need some support. 489 00:25:20,487 --> 00:25:21,840 A Deputy Chairman, 490 00:25:22,007 --> 00:25:24,726 someone with real experience of Industry. 491 00:25:25,807 --> 00:25:27,763 An excellent thought. 492 00:25:28,047 --> 00:25:32,245 Is there anyone you could advise me would be appropriate? 493 00:25:32,567 --> 00:25:35,240 ATrade Unionist, forexample? 494 00:25:37,647 --> 00:25:40,002 What about Joe Morgan, Minister? 495 00:25:40,167 --> 00:25:41,566 Joe Morgan! 496 00:25:42,487 --> 00:25:44,921 What an excellent idea. Well done. 497 00:25:45,087 --> 00:25:47,362 It takes two to quango, Minister. 498 00:25:49,047 --> 00:25:51,356 Get on to them both immediately. 499 00:25:51,527 --> 00:25:54,405 This is what's wrong with the system! 500 00:25:54,567 --> 00:25:57,684 It's jobs forthe boys, quid pro quo corruption. 501 00:25:57,847 --> 00:25:59,838 What about my quango abolition paper? 502 00:26:00,007 --> 00:26:03,238 Very good, Frank. Original and imaginative. 503 00:26:03,407 --> 00:26:04,635 - Novel. - Novel. 504 00:26:05,647 --> 00:26:07,922 I'm serious about it. What are you going to do? 505 00:26:11,327 --> 00:26:14,046 You're not going to suppress it. 506 00:26:14,207 --> 00:26:17,085 I'll get it adopted as party policy. 507 00:26:17,247 --> 00:26:19,522 If the Press were to get hold of this... 508 00:26:19,687 --> 00:26:22,565 Yes, if the Press were to get hold of this. 509 00:26:22,727 --> 00:26:25,321 - What a story! - Frank, I've been wondering. 510 00:26:25,487 --> 00:26:28,160 Have you everthought of serving on a quango? 511 00:26:28,327 --> 00:26:30,124 You're not corrupting me. 512 00:26:30,287 --> 00:26:32,039 No, no, of course not. 513 00:26:32,207 --> 00:26:34,357 But perhaps betterthan abolishing 514 00:26:34,527 --> 00:26:37,485 the entire system would be to make itwork. 515 00:26:37,967 --> 00:26:40,606 Humphrey and I were thinking, if we were to set up 516 00:26:40,767 --> 00:26:43,281 a special commission to investigate and report 517 00:26:43,447 --> 00:26:46,564 on the composition and activities of all quangos, 518 00:26:46,727 --> 00:26:48,479 that might be the answer. 519 00:26:48,647 --> 00:26:49,682 The answer! 520 00:26:49,847 --> 00:26:53,283 Itwould have to be very senior, mostly Privy Councillors. 521 00:26:54,287 --> 00:26:56,926 But itwould need too some very able people 522 00:26:57,087 --> 00:26:58,759 who have studied quangos 523 00:26:58,927 --> 00:27:01,157 and knew the abuses of the system. 524 00:27:01,407 --> 00:27:04,524 And in the light of yourknowledge and concern, 525 00:27:04,687 --> 00:27:07,326 Humphrey suggested yourname. 526 00:27:09,047 --> 00:27:11,766 - Didn't you, Humphrey? - Mr. Weisel, I said. 527 00:27:12,287 --> 00:27:14,437 You're not going to change my opinions. 528 00:27:14,607 --> 00:27:17,440 - There is such a thing as integrity. - Of course. 529 00:27:17,607 --> 00:27:20,121 Youropinions and your integrity would make you 530 00:27:20,287 --> 00:27:22,357 such a valuable member of this quango. 531 00:27:22,527 --> 00:27:24,961 Mind you, itwould be very hard work. 532 00:27:25,687 --> 00:27:28,485 Service to this SuperQuango would involve you 533 00:27:28,647 --> 00:27:31,798 in some very arduous foreign travel, 534 00:27:33,287 --> 00:27:35,676 to see how these matters are managed 535 00:27:35,847 --> 00:27:38,042 in other important government centres. 536 00:27:38,647 --> 00:27:40,399 Japan, Australia, 537 00:27:40,727 --> 00:27:42,285 California, 538 00:27:42,847 --> 00:27:44,326 the West Indies... 539 00:27:44,967 --> 00:27:47,083 - Tahiti... - Tahiti. 540 00:27:49,447 --> 00:27:52,086 Yes, thatwould be fairly arduous. 541 00:27:52,247 --> 00:27:54,841 Dreadful. Dreadful. 542 00:27:55,447 --> 00:27:58,120 But serving the public's what it's all about, isn't it? 543 00:27:58,287 --> 00:27:59,925 - Absolutely... - Serving the public. 544 00:28:00,087 --> 00:28:01,600 Serving the public. 545 00:28:02,847 --> 00:28:04,519 And my quango paper? 546 00:28:04,687 --> 00:28:07,247 Invaluable, take itwith you. 547 00:28:09,167 --> 00:28:13,718 I'll keep a copy, if I may, on the files. 548 00:28:14,247 --> 00:28:16,124 With the Solihull Report. 549 00:28:16,887 --> 00:28:18,286 Yes, Minister.