1 00:00:41,167 --> 00:00:46,162 So, Kathy, the Prime Minister saw fit to invite one into the Cabinet 2 00:00:46,327 --> 00:00:48,761 And, well, here one is. 3 00:00:48,927 --> 00:00:51,043 Isn't it a terrific responsibility? 4 00:00:51,727 --> 00:00:55,720 I suppose, if one chooses to dedicate one's life to public service, 5 00:00:55,887 --> 00:00:58,845 responsibility is something one accepts. 6 00:00:59,007 --> 00:01:02,283 - But all this power! - I know, I know! 7 00:01:02,447 --> 00:01:06,725 Frightening sometimes. But it also makes one very humble. 8 00:01:06,887 --> 00:01:09,196 There one sits at the Cabinet table, 9 00:01:09,367 --> 00:01:11,927 Number 10 Downing Street, and one realises... 10 00:01:12,087 --> 00:01:13,998 Bernard rang, O humble one. 11 00:01:14,167 --> 00:01:17,637 Central House want you to watch a programme on BBC2. 12 00:01:17,807 --> 00:01:21,402 Maureen Watkins, MP. One of the backbench MPs. 13 00:01:21,567 --> 00:01:24,001 Not my favourite lady. A rampaging feminist. 14 00:01:24,167 --> 00:01:26,965 I don't think I'll bother. Don't write that down. 15 00:01:27,127 --> 00:01:28,719 I like Maureen Watkins. 16 00:01:28,887 --> 00:01:32,516 Don't you think that women are still the exploited sex? 17 00:01:32,687 --> 00:01:37,442 All of us in 5B think that women are exploited at work and at home 18 00:01:37,607 --> 00:01:40,041 and still it's a world designed by men 19 00:01:40,207 --> 00:01:42,596 and run by men for men’s convenience. 20 00:01:44,407 --> 00:01:47,399 - Like she says. - Not any longer, surely? 21 00:01:47,567 --> 00:01:50,320 She doesn't carry any weight in the House. 22 00:01:50,487 --> 00:01:51,840 No, it’s full of men. 23 00:01:52,687 --> 00:01:55,724 Thank you. Anything else you'd like to ask? 24 00:01:56,327 --> 00:01:58,283 Just one last question. 25 00:01:58,447 --> 00:02:03,202 As a minister with all this power, what have you personally achieved? 26 00:02:03,367 --> 00:02:05,881 Achieved? Oh, well, all sorts of things. 27 00:02:06,047 --> 00:02:09,722 Membership of the Privy Council, the Party Policy Committee... 28 00:02:09,887 --> 00:02:13,596 No, things you've done that makes life better for other people. 29 00:02:14,447 --> 00:02:17,166 - Makes life better? - Yes. 30 00:02:17,327 --> 00:02:21,036 For other people? There must be a number of things. 31 00:02:21,207 --> 00:02:25,758 That's what one's job is all about. 18 hours a day, 7 days a week. 32 00:02:27,047 --> 00:02:29,038 Could you give me examples? 33 00:02:29,207 --> 00:02:32,199 - Makes it a bit boring otherwise. - Examples. 34 00:02:32,367 --> 00:02:34,358 Difficult to know where to start. 35 00:02:34,527 --> 00:02:37,360 So much of government is collective decisions. 36 00:02:37,527 --> 00:02:40,963 All of us together, best minds in the country, 37 00:02:41,127 --> 00:02:42,355 hammering it out. 38 00:02:42,527 --> 00:02:46,679 But what will you look back on afterwards and say “I did that.” 39 00:02:46,847 --> 00:02:50,635 You know, like a writer can look at his books. 40 00:02:50,807 --> 00:02:55,642 Government is a complex business. So many people have to have their say. 41 00:02:55,807 --> 00:02:59,163 These things take time. Rome wasn't built in a day... 42 00:02:59,327 --> 00:03:01,682 Good heavens, is that the time? 43 00:03:01,847 --> 00:03:05,044 I really must be getting my boxes. Excuse me. 44 00:03:05,207 --> 00:03:08,199 - Oh, thank you. - Thank you so much. 45 00:03:08,367 --> 00:03:10,323 Such fun, having this little talk. 46 00:03:10,487 --> 00:03:13,559 And you'll let me approve the article, as we agreed? 47 00:03:13,727 --> 00:03:15,718 - Bye. - Bye. 48 00:03:21,927 --> 00:03:23,519 Bright kid. 49 00:03:23,687 --> 00:03:25,962 Last interview I give for a school magazine. 50 00:03:26,127 --> 00:03:28,482 She asked some difficult questions. 51 00:03:28,847 --> 00:03:33,796 Just innocent. She assumed there was some moral basis to your activities. 52 00:03:33,967 --> 00:03:36,561 - Well, there is. - Oh, Jim, don't be silly! 53 00:03:41,127 --> 00:03:42,879 What are you sighing for? 54 00:03:43,047 --> 00:03:44,526 I'm not sighing. 55 00:03:49,007 --> 00:03:50,122 Out with it. 56 00:03:50,287 --> 00:03:53,677 Well, what have I achieved? She's right. 57 00:03:53,847 --> 00:03:57,556 - It really does make you humble! - I can't get any bills through. 58 00:03:57,727 --> 00:04:01,925 - The time’s taken up for two years. - Reform the Civil Servlce. 59 00:04:02,087 --> 00:04:04,282 - Impossible. Catch 22. - Why? 60 00:04:04,447 --> 00:04:07,086 Supposing I suggested 50 terrific reforms, 61 00:04:07,247 --> 00:04:09,363 who would have to implement them? 62 00:04:09,527 --> 00:04:11,518 The Civil Servlce. 63 00:04:11,687 --> 00:04:13,996 All right, I tell you what. 64 00:04:14,167 --> 00:04:16,761 Not 50 reforms, just one. 65 00:04:17,447 --> 00:04:18,926 Huh! What? 66 00:04:19,087 --> 00:04:22,477 If you achieve one import reform, that'd be something. 67 00:04:22,647 --> 00:04:25,639 Get me in the record books! What do you suggest? 68 00:04:25,807 --> 00:04:28,480 Make them put more women into top jobs. 69 00:04:28,647 --> 00:04:30,205 Women are half the population, 70 00:04:30,367 --> 00:04:32,835 they should be half the Permanent Secretaries. 71 00:04:33,007 --> 00:04:34,918 How many women are there at the top? 72 00:04:35,087 --> 00:04:36,281 Not many. 73 00:04:36,887 --> 00:04:38,764 Equal opportunities. 74 00:04:39,807 --> 00:04:44,437 I'll have a go. After all, there's a principle at stake. 75 00:04:44,607 --> 00:04:47,679 You're gong to do something out of pure principle? 76 00:04:47,847 --> 00:04:49,724 - Yes. - Oh, Jim. 77 00:04:49,887 --> 00:04:52,242 Principles are excellent vote winners. 78 00:04:55,727 --> 00:05:00,084 - We don't have to do anything? - No. Paragraphs 1 and 2 are wrong. 79 00:05:00,247 --> 00:05:02,966 And all the other points are covered. 80 00:05:03,127 --> 00:05:07,120 I don't have to make a decision. I don't even have to apologise. 81 00:05:07,287 --> 00:05:10,006 - Can you do a reply for me? - Done it. 82 00:05:10,167 --> 00:05:14,558 Fantastic. Why don't they make more Under-Secretaries like you? 83 00:05:14,727 --> 00:05:17,002 - Anything else, Minister? - No. 84 00:05:17,167 --> 00:05:22,446 Tell me, Sarah, how many women are there at the top of the Civil Servlce? 85 00:05:22,607 --> 00:05:26,759 No Permanent Secretaries. Four out of 150 Deputy Secretaries. 86 00:05:26,927 --> 00:05:30,203 - What about your grade? - There are 27 of us. 87 00:05:30,367 --> 00:05:33,165 - Not too bad. Out of how many? - 578. 88 00:05:34,887 --> 00:05:37,640 But that's appalling! Aren't you appalled? 89 00:05:37,807 --> 00:05:40,275 Not really. I find it comic. 90 00:05:40,447 --> 00:05:44,042 But then I find most of the Civil Servlce comic. 91 00:05:44,207 --> 00:05:46,198 It's run by men, after all. 92 00:05:47,487 --> 00:05:50,047 What can you do about it? What can I do? 93 00:05:50,207 --> 00:05:52,198 - Are you serious, Minister? - Yes. 94 00:05:52,367 --> 00:05:54,927 It's easy. Bring top women from the professions, 95 00:05:55,087 --> 00:05:57,726 commerce, industry, straight into the top grades. 96 00:05:57,887 --> 00:06:01,402 The pay is good for women. Long holidays, pensions. 97 00:06:01,567 --> 00:06:04,035 You'd get high-quality applicants. 98 00:06:04,207 --> 00:06:07,040 - And they could do the job? - Of course. 99 00:06:07,207 --> 00:06:11,041 With respect, if you can make a journalist MP into a minister, 100 00:06:11,207 --> 00:06:14,483 why can't you make a senior partner from a legal firm 101 00:06:14,647 --> 00:06:16,205 into an Under-Secretary 102 00:06:16,367 --> 00:06:20,565 Most of the work here only needs about two O-levels, anyway. 103 00:06:21,927 --> 00:06:25,715 - Good point, thank you very much. - Thank you, Minister. 104 00:06:30,607 --> 00:06:33,804 - You rang, Minister? - Bernard, Sarah told... 105 00:06:33,967 --> 00:06:37,357 - Yes, Minister? - Call me Jim when we're alone. 106 00:06:37,527 --> 00:06:40,325 I'll try to remember that, Minister. 107 00:06:40,487 --> 00:06:43,559 Sarah tells me this complaint is nonsense. 108 00:06:43,727 --> 00:06:47,686 - Oh, fine. So we can CGSM it. - CGSM? 109 00:06:47,847 --> 00:06:49,644 Civil servlce code. It stands for 110 00:06:49,807 --> 00:06:52,605 Consignment of Geriatric Shoe Manufacturers. 111 00:06:54,087 --> 00:06:56,282 Load of old cobblers, Minister. 112 00:06:57,927 --> 00:07:01,124 I'm not a civil servant. I shall use my own code. 113 00:07:01,287 --> 00:07:04,359 I shall write "round objects". 114 00:07:07,287 --> 00:07:11,485 Ah, Minister, you wanted a word about staffing? 115 00:07:11,647 --> 00:07:14,639 - Yes, Humphrey. - Morning, Bernard. 116 00:07:14,807 --> 00:07:16,798 I've made a policy decision. 117 00:07:16,967 --> 00:07:18,446 I'm gong to do something 118 00:07:18,607 --> 00:07:21,485 about the number of women in the Civil Servlce. 119 00:07:21,647 --> 00:07:24,241 Surely there aren't all that many. 120 00:07:25,447 --> 00:07:28,803 - That's my point. - The Minister thinks we need more. 121 00:07:28,967 --> 00:07:30,764 - Many more. - More? 122 00:07:30,927 --> 00:07:33,202 We're quite well up to establishment 123 00:07:33,367 --> 00:07:35,756 on typists, cleaners and tea ladles. 124 00:07:35,927 --> 00:07:37,246 Any ideas, Bernard? 125 00:07:37,407 --> 00:07:40,205 We are a bit short on temporary secretaries. 126 00:07:40,367 --> 00:07:43,006 I'm talking about Permanent Secretaries. 127 00:07:44,287 --> 00:07:47,120 - Permanent... - We need female mandarins. 128 00:07:47,287 --> 00:07:49,278 Sort of satsumas, Minister. 129 00:07:51,327 --> 00:07:53,761 Sit down, will you, Bernard. 130 00:07:53,927 --> 00:07:57,363 - How many PS are there? - 41, I believe. 131 00:07:57,527 --> 00:08:01,520 - And how many of those are women? - Well, broadly speaking... 132 00:08:01,687 --> 00:08:04,360 Not having the figures to hand, I'm not sure. 133 00:08:04,527 --> 00:08:06,995 - Approximately. - Approximately... none. 134 00:08:08,247 --> 00:08:11,876 None. And there are about 150 Deputy Secretaries. 135 00:08:12,047 --> 00:08:13,446 How many are women? 136 00:08:13,607 --> 00:08:15,837 - Well, it’s difficult to say. - Why? 137 00:08:16,007 --> 00:08:18,919 There's a lot of old women among the men. 138 00:08:20,407 --> 00:08:24,036 - Four. - Are there really? 139 00:08:24,207 --> 00:08:26,562 I'm gong to announce a quota of 25% women 140 00:08:26,727 --> 00:08:29,195 Deputy Secretaries and Permanent Secretaries 141 00:08:29,367 --> 00:08:31,358 to be achieved in four years. 142 00:08:31,527 --> 00:08:36,123 Wait a minute. I'm obviously in total sympathy with your objectives. 143 00:08:36,287 --> 00:08:39,245 - Obviously. - Of course we must have more women. 144 00:08:39,407 --> 00:08:43,764 Of course! All of us are deeply concerned by this apparent imbalance, 145 00:08:43,927 --> 00:08:45,918 but these things take time. 146 00:08:46,087 --> 00:08:49,284 - I want to make a start straight away. - I agree. 147 00:08:49,447 --> 00:08:53,918 I propose we make a start by setting up an inter-departmental committee... 148 00:08:54,087 --> 00:08:57,636 No, no, no. That's not what I meant and you know it. 149 00:08:57,807 --> 00:09:02,164 No delays. This needs a sledgehammer. We must cut through the red tape. 150 00:09:02,327 --> 00:09:05,080 You can't cut tape with a sledgehammer... 151 00:09:05,247 --> 00:09:06,760 You know what I mean. 152 00:09:06,927 --> 00:09:11,443 Minister, you do me an injustice. I was not about to suggest delays. 153 00:09:11,607 --> 00:09:14,075 - Oh, sorry. - That's all right. 154 00:09:14,247 --> 00:09:17,239 I suggest that, if we are to have 25% quota, 155 00:09:17,407 --> 00:09:20,285 we need a larger intake at the recruitment stage 156 00:09:20,447 --> 00:09:23,519 so eventually there'll be 25% in the top jobs. 157 00:09:23,687 --> 00:09:25,678 - When? - In 25 years. 158 00:09:25,847 --> 00:09:29,635 No, Humphrey, you haven't quite got my drift. I mean now. 159 00:09:32,487 --> 00:09:36,082 - Oh... you mean, now - Got it in one, Humphrey. 160 00:09:37,127 --> 00:09:39,516 It takes time to do things now. 161 00:09:41,487 --> 00:09:45,036 The three articles of Civil Service faith: It takes longer to do things quickly; 162 00:09:45,207 --> 00:09:47,482 It's more expensive to do them cheaply 163 00:09:47,647 --> 00:09:50,400 and more democratic to do them in secret. 164 00:09:50,567 --> 00:09:53,479 I have suggested four years. Masses of time. 165 00:09:53,647 --> 00:09:56,844 Oh, dear me, no! 166 00:09:57,007 --> 00:10:00,602 I don't mean political time, I mean real time. 167 00:10:00,767 --> 00:10:03,235 Civil servants are grown like... 168 00:10:03,407 --> 00:10:06,399 like oak trees, not mustard and cress. 169 00:10:08,927 --> 00:10:13,364 They bloom and ripen with the seasons, they mature like... 170 00:10:14,087 --> 00:10:17,716 - Like yourself. - I was about to say like an old port. 171 00:10:18,487 --> 00:10:20,079 Like Grimsby, perhaps. 172 00:10:22,647 --> 00:10:27,198 - Yes, I was being serious, Minister. - I foresaw this problem. 173 00:10:27,367 --> 00:10:31,963 I propose we solve it by bringing in top women from outside the servlce 174 00:10:32,127 --> 00:10:34,197 to fill vacancies in the top jobs. 175 00:10:34,367 --> 00:10:35,766 I... 176 00:10:36,887 --> 00:10:41,085 - I don't think I quite understood. - Watch my mouth, Humphrey. 177 00:10:41,247 --> 00:10:44,364 We will bring in women from outside. 178 00:10:44,527 --> 00:10:46,358 But the strength of the system is 179 00:10:46,527 --> 00:10:49,519 that it is pure and unsullied by outside influences. 180 00:10:49,687 --> 00:10:52,679 People move jobs. Why should the Civil Servlce be different? 181 00:10:52,847 --> 00:10:55,441 It is different. It demands subtlety. 182 00:10:55,607 --> 00:10:57,404 - Discretion. - Devotion to duty. 183 00:10:57,567 --> 00:11:00,877 - Soundness. - Soundness! Well said, Bernard! 184 00:11:01,047 --> 00:11:05,677 Civil servants require endless patience and boundless understanding. 185 00:11:05,847 --> 00:11:09,237 They need to be able to change horses mild-stream, 186 00:11:09,407 --> 00:11:12,638 as politicians change what they call their minds. 187 00:11:12,807 --> 00:11:16,880 - You have these talents? - It is just that one's been properly... 188 00:11:17,047 --> 00:11:20,357 - Matured. Like Grimsby. - Trained. 189 00:11:20,527 --> 00:11:24,076 Ask yourself if there isn’t something wrong with the system. 190 00:11:24,247 --> 00:11:28,638 - Why are there so few women deputies? - They keep leaving to have babies. 191 00:11:28,807 --> 00:11:32,800 - At nearly 50? Surely not. - I don't know. I'm on your side. 192 00:11:32,967 --> 00:11:36,960 - We do need more women at the top. - I'm not waiting 25 years. 193 00:11:37,127 --> 00:11:39,960 There's a vacancy for Deputy Secretary here. 194 00:11:40,127 --> 00:11:41,116 Yes. 195 00:11:41,287 --> 00:11:44,279 I shall appoint a woman. Sarah Harrison. 196 00:11:44,447 --> 00:11:45,562 Sarah Harrison? 197 00:11:45,727 --> 00:11:49,845 - I think she's very able, don't you? - Very. For a woman, for a person. 198 00:11:50,007 --> 00:11:52,237 And she is an original thinker. 199 00:11:52,407 --> 00:11:56,605 Yes, that's true, but she doesn't let it interfere with her work. 200 00:11:56,767 --> 00:12:00,316 - What have you got against her? - Nothing. She's excellent. 201 00:12:00,487 --> 00:12:02,284 I'm a supporter of hers. 202 00:12:02,447 --> 00:12:06,759 I advocated her promotion to Under-Secretary at a very early age. 203 00:12:06,927 --> 00:12:08,963 Would you agree that she is outstanding? 204 00:12:09,127 --> 00:12:10,116 Yes. 205 00:12:10,287 --> 00:12:14,758 - So, on balance, it is a good idea? - On balance... yes and no. 206 00:12:16,127 --> 00:12:19,517 - That's not a very clear answer. - it’s a balanced answer. 207 00:12:19,687 --> 00:12:23,077 The point is she's too young and it’s not her turn. 208 00:12:23,247 --> 00:12:24,566 I knew you'd say that! 209 00:12:24,727 --> 00:12:28,436 This is exactly what's wrong with the Civil Servlce: Buggins' turn! 210 00:12:28,607 --> 00:12:33,203 - The best people should be promoted! - Exactly! As soon as it’s their turn! 211 00:12:33,367 --> 00:12:37,758 Oh, nonsense! Napoleon ruled Europe when he was in his 30s! 212 00:12:37,927 --> 00:12:40,077 Alexander conquered the world in his 20s. 213 00:12:40,247 --> 00:12:42,841 They'd have made poor Deputy Secretaries. 214 00:12:43,007 --> 00:12:46,363 - They didn't wait their turn! - And look what happened to them. 215 00:12:46,527 --> 00:12:48,324 And look what's happened to us! 216 00:12:48,487 --> 00:12:52,719 Instead of being run by a lot of young, able, energetic men, 217 00:12:52,887 --> 00:12:55,685 this country's being run by tired, cynical 55-year-olds 218 00:12:55,847 --> 00:12:57,883 who just want a quiet life! 219 00:12:59,247 --> 00:13:02,045 Had you anyone specific in mind? 220 00:13:04,087 --> 00:13:06,476 Yes and no, Humphrey. 221 00:13:07,727 --> 00:13:11,845 Oh, Minister, Sarah Harrison Is an excellent civil servant 222 00:13:12,007 --> 00:13:13,725 and a bright hope for the future, 223 00:13:13,887 --> 00:13:16,447 but she is our most junior Under-Secretary 224 00:13:16,607 --> 00:13:18,996 and I will not recommend her promotion. 225 00:13:19,167 --> 00:13:23,763 - I think you're a sexist. - How could you say such a thing? 226 00:13:23,927 --> 00:13:27,044 I'm very pro-women. Wonderful people, women. 227 00:13:28,167 --> 00:13:31,762 Sarah is a dear lady. I'm one of her greatest admirers. 228 00:13:31,927 --> 00:13:34,805 But, if the cause of women Is to be advanced, 229 00:13:34,967 --> 00:13:38,403 It must be done with care, tact and discretion. 230 00:13:38,567 --> 00:13:41,798 She is our only woman contender for a top job. 231 00:13:41,967 --> 00:13:44,197 We mustn't push her too fast. 232 00:13:44,367 --> 00:13:48,246 - Women find top jobs very difficult. - Can you hear yourself? 233 00:13:48,407 --> 00:13:51,399 If women could be good Permanent Secretaries, 234 00:13:51,567 --> 00:13:54,400 there would be more of them. Stands to reason. 235 00:13:54,567 --> 00:13:57,798 - No... - I'm not anti-feminist! I love women! 236 00:13:57,967 --> 00:14:00,117 Some of my best friends are women! 237 00:14:02,407 --> 00:14:04,204 Er... my wife, indeed. 238 00:14:06,607 --> 00:14:09,326 But Sarah is as yet very inexperienced 239 00:14:09,487 --> 00:14:11,762 and her children are still of school age. 240 00:14:11,927 --> 00:14:14,600 - They might get mumps! - You might get shingles! 241 00:14:14,767 --> 00:14:18,282 I might indeed if you continue in this vein. 242 00:14:18,447 --> 00:14:20,836 What if her children caused her to miss work? 243 00:14:21,007 --> 00:14:23,646 Would she have reached Under-Secretary in that case? 244 00:14:23,807 --> 00:14:25,286 She is the best person! 245 00:14:25,447 --> 00:14:28,644 If you promote women just because they're the best person, 246 00:14:28,807 --> 00:14:32,720 you will create a lot of resentment throughout the Civil Servlce! 247 00:14:32,887 --> 00:14:36,880 - Not from the women in it. - Well, that hardly matters, does it? 248 00:14:38,127 --> 00:14:39,765 Hardly matters? 249 00:14:41,087 --> 00:14:43,043 There are so few of them. 250 00:14:47,887 --> 00:14:51,482 I've told him women are different, but he can't grasp it. 251 00:14:51,647 --> 00:14:54,036 They put such strains on a team. 252 00:14:54,207 --> 00:14:58,246 They react differently. They're emotional. Not rational like us. 253 00:14:58,407 --> 00:15:01,046 No. it’s hopeless when you tell them off. 254 00:15:01,207 --> 00:15:04,279 Either they get into a frightful bate or start blubbing. 255 00:15:04,447 --> 00:15:08,486 And if they're not the sort who blub, they become frightfully hard and butch. 256 00:15:08,647 --> 00:15:10,638 Not the least bit attractive. 257 00:15:11,807 --> 00:15:15,243 - They're full of prejudices. - Make silly generalisations. 258 00:15:16,127 --> 00:15:18,322 They think in stereotypes. 259 00:15:20,487 --> 00:15:22,955 Arnold, what do you think I should do? 260 00:15:23,127 --> 00:15:27,564 Lecture him at such length on the matter that he becomes bored 261 00:15:27,727 --> 00:15:29,843 and loses interest in the idea. 262 00:15:30,007 --> 00:15:33,716 Yes, might work. Mind you, he doesn't get bored easily. 263 00:15:33,887 --> 00:15:37,084 - He even finds himself interesting. - They all do. 264 00:15:37,247 --> 00:15:39,715 All the ones who listen to what they're saying. 265 00:15:39,887 --> 00:15:41,240 Not many of those. 266 00:15:42,207 --> 00:15:46,200 The standard second ploy is to tell him the unions won’t wear it. 267 00:15:46,367 --> 00:15:49,086 - They'd like it. - That's beside the point. 268 00:15:49,447 --> 00:15:50,846 Oh, yes, sorry. 269 00:15:51,007 --> 00:15:53,965 What does his wife think about all this? 270 00:15:54,127 --> 00:15:56,846 I gather she’s in favour of promoting Harrison. 271 00:15:57,007 --> 00:15:58,725 In fact, she may be behind it. 272 00:15:58,887 --> 00:16:04,359 I see. Does she know that Sarah Harrison is rather attractive? 273 00:16:04,527 --> 00:16:06,722 No, I don't think they've ever met... 274 00:16:10,727 --> 00:16:12,001 Good idea. 275 00:16:12,687 --> 00:16:16,362 We must mobilise the Cabinet against this quota nonsense. 276 00:16:16,527 --> 00:16:20,725 - They'll be in favour of it. - We can get them to change their minds. 277 00:16:20,887 --> 00:16:25,119 - They change their minds fairly easily. - Just like a lot of women! 278 00:16:25,287 --> 00:16:27,437 Thank God they don't blub! 279 00:16:29,647 --> 00:16:33,799 Minister, I have come to the conclusion that you were right. 280 00:16:36,287 --> 00:16:38,801 - Are you being serious? - Yes, indeed. 281 00:16:38,967 --> 00:16:41,765 I have taken your ideas on board 282 00:16:41,927 --> 00:16:45,158 and I am now positively against discrimination against women 283 00:16:45,327 --> 00:16:47,966 and in favour of positive discrimination, 284 00:16:48,127 --> 00:16:50,083 discriminating discrimination, of course. 285 00:16:51,567 --> 00:16:53,558 Yes... I think I've got that. 286 00:16:53,727 --> 00:16:57,606 The view is, at the very highest level, that this should happen. 287 00:16:57,767 --> 00:16:59,325 - Good. - However... 288 00:17:00,967 --> 00:17:04,516 There is a problem about the quota. Mind if I sit down? 289 00:17:04,687 --> 00:17:06,405 The unions won’t wear it. 290 00:17:06,767 --> 00:17:10,919 - Let's have 'em in. We'll talk about it. - Er... no, Minister. 291 00:17:11,087 --> 00:17:14,204 That would just stir up a hornets' nest. 292 00:17:14,367 --> 00:17:15,356 Why? 293 00:17:16,847 --> 00:17:21,796 Well, if I might suggest... that we be realistic about this. 294 00:17:21,967 --> 00:17:24,925 By realistic, you mean drop the whole scheme. 295 00:17:25,087 --> 00:17:26,315 Oh, dear me, no! 296 00:17:26,487 --> 00:17:29,206 But, perhaps, a pause to re-group. 297 00:17:29,367 --> 00:17:33,804 A lull in which to reassess the situation and discuss alternative strategies. 298 00:17:33,967 --> 00:17:36,720 A space of time for reflection and deliberation. 299 00:17:37,727 --> 00:17:40,321 You mean drop the whole scheme. 300 00:17:40,487 --> 00:17:44,082 No, I've set my hand to the plough, I've made the decision. 301 00:17:44,247 --> 00:17:48,240 We shall have a 25% quota of women within the next four years 302 00:17:48,407 --> 00:17:51,399 and, to make a start, I shall appoint Sarah Harrison. 303 00:17:51,567 --> 00:17:55,765 - That is the wrong decision. - Principle, Humphrey, principle. 304 00:17:55,927 --> 00:17:58,839 My Cabinet colleagues will support me. 305 00:17:59,007 --> 00:18:01,077 There's a lot of votes in women's rights. 306 00:18:01,247 --> 00:18:04,842 Votes? I thought you said It was a matter of principle. 307 00:18:07,767 --> 00:18:10,327 For me. I was talking about them. 308 00:18:11,407 --> 00:18:12,396 Yes? 309 00:18:12,567 --> 00:18:14,762 - Mrs Hacker's here. - Send her in. 310 00:18:14,927 --> 00:18:19,125 Could she come in? Could you sign the letters before you go, Minister? 311 00:18:19,287 --> 00:18:22,518 - Get Humphrey to give you a drink. - Sherry 312 00:18:23,927 --> 00:18:27,124 Remember that letter you wrote "round objects" on? 313 00:18:27,287 --> 00:18:29,881 Sir Humphrey has commented on it. 314 00:18:30,047 --> 00:18:31,082 What's he say? 315 00:18:31,247 --> 00:18:34,444 "Who is Round and to what does he object?" 316 00:18:37,407 --> 00:18:40,126 Here you are. Your very good health. 317 00:18:40,287 --> 00:18:43,882 Yes, it’s a slow business changing the Civil Servlce. 318 00:18:44,047 --> 00:18:47,039 What about promoting this woman Jim was talking about? 319 00:18:47,207 --> 00:18:50,802 Oh, yes, your husband certainly has an eye for talent 320 00:18:50,967 --> 00:18:52,798 and Sarah's very talented. 321 00:18:52,967 --> 00:18:55,959 - Quite delightful, real charmer. - Really? 322 00:18:56,127 --> 00:19:00,279 I very much admire this new generation of women civil servants 323 00:19:00,447 --> 00:19:03,245 compared to the old battle-axes I remember! 324 00:19:04,647 --> 00:19:07,798 Of course, they're not all as beautiful as Sarah, 325 00:19:07,967 --> 00:19:10,800 but they do manage to keep their femininity. 326 00:19:10,967 --> 00:19:13,162 Jim never discussed what she looks like. 327 00:19:13,327 --> 00:19:15,318 Perhaps he hasn't noticed. 328 00:19:16,607 --> 00:19:21,203 I find that hard to believe. He does spend a lot of time with her. 329 00:19:21,367 --> 00:19:24,803 And even more if she's promoted. Shall we sit down? 330 00:19:27,287 --> 00:19:29,676 And so, gentlemen, my minister is set 331 00:19:29,847 --> 00:19:32,884 on creating a quota of 25% women, 332 00:19:33,047 --> 00:19:35,242 leading to an eventual 50% . 333 00:19:35,407 --> 00:19:37,204 - Parity, I see. - Yes. 334 00:19:38,327 --> 00:19:40,158 It seems right and proper to me 335 00:19:40,327 --> 00:19:43,364 that men and women be treated fairly and equally. 336 00:19:43,527 --> 00:19:47,076 I speak for all of us when I say that, in principle, 337 00:19:47,247 --> 00:19:50,125 there should be such targets set and goals achieved. 338 00:19:52,247 --> 00:19:56,365 - Bill? - Well, I'm fully in favour of this idea. 339 00:19:56,527 --> 00:20:00,122 We must have positive discrimination in favour of women. 340 00:20:00,287 --> 00:20:02,881 It wouldn't work with the Foreign Office. 341 00:20:03,047 --> 00:20:06,835 We couldn't post women ambassadors to Iran or Muslim nations. 342 00:20:07,007 --> 00:20:08,406 No, quite, quite. 343 00:20:08,567 --> 00:20:12,196 The Third World Is not so advanced as us. 344 00:20:12,367 --> 00:20:16,963 And as we have to send diplomats to new postings every three years, 345 00:20:17,127 --> 00:20:21,200 this idea is obviously not for us, but I do approve the principle. 346 00:20:23,327 --> 00:20:25,318 - Nell? - I'm in favour of it. 347 00:20:25,487 --> 00:20:27,876 I think we need the feminine touch. 348 00:20:28,047 --> 00:20:32,438 Women are better at handling some problems than men. 349 00:20:32,607 --> 00:20:36,395 We would have to make an exception in the Home Office. 350 00:20:36,567 --> 00:20:40,355 Women are not the right people to run prisons or the police. 351 00:20:40,527 --> 00:20:43,564 Quite probably, they wouldn't want to do it, anyway. 352 00:20:43,727 --> 00:20:47,686 - But you do agree with the principle? - Oh, yes, without question. 353 00:20:47,847 --> 00:20:48,882 Peter? 354 00:20:49,247 --> 00:20:52,045 Yes, the same applies to Defence... alas. 355 00:20:52,207 --> 00:20:54,198 All those admirals and generals. 356 00:20:54,367 --> 00:20:59,236 It wouldn’t be possible to appoint a woman as Head of Security. 357 00:20:59,407 --> 00:21:01,477 M would have to become F. 358 00:21:04,007 --> 00:21:08,398 Yes, Defence is clearly a man's world, like Industry and Employment. 359 00:21:08,567 --> 00:21:11,286 All those trade union leaders! 360 00:21:11,447 --> 00:21:13,642 But what about the DHSS? John? 361 00:21:13,807 --> 00:21:18,005 Women are well represented near the top of the DHSS. 362 00:21:18,167 --> 00:21:22,285 After all, we have two of the four Deputy Secretaries in Whitehall. 363 00:21:23,487 --> 00:21:25,478 Not eligible for Permanent Secretary 364 00:21:25,647 --> 00:21:28,286 because they're Deputy Chief Medical Officers. 365 00:21:28,447 --> 00:21:32,599 I'm not sure they're really suitable. No, that's unfair. 366 00:21:32,767 --> 00:21:35,725 Of course, women are 80% of our clerical staff 367 00:21:35,887 --> 00:21:37,764 and 99% of the typing grades. 368 00:21:37,927 --> 00:21:39,804 We're not doling too badly. 369 00:21:40,647 --> 00:21:43,480 In principle, I'm in favour of them gong to the top. 370 00:21:43,647 --> 00:21:44,636 Good, good. 371 00:21:44,807 --> 00:21:48,959 The feeling of the meeting is, in principle, that we’re all in favour 372 00:21:49,127 --> 00:21:51,322 of equal rights for the ladles, 373 00:21:51,487 --> 00:21:55,082 but there are special problems in individual departments. 374 00:21:55,247 --> 00:21:58,956 - Hear hear! - What about this question of the quota? 375 00:21:59,127 --> 00:22:02,642 - Frankly, I'm against it. - Oh, yes, not on! 376 00:22:02,807 --> 00:22:08,200 We must, in my view, have the right to promote the best man for the job, 377 00:22:08,367 --> 00:22:09,800 regardless of sex. 378 00:22:11,887 --> 00:22:14,481 Speaking as an ardent feminist myself, 379 00:22:14,647 --> 00:22:18,845 I think the problem lies in recruiting the right sort of women. 380 00:22:19,007 --> 00:22:21,396 Marled women with families drop out 381 00:22:21,567 --> 00:22:25,560 because they cannot give their work their full, single-minded attention. 382 00:22:25,727 --> 00:22:27,718 Unmarred women with no children 383 00:22:27,887 --> 00:22:32,403 are not fully-rounded people with a thorough understanding of life. 384 00:22:33,327 --> 00:22:37,798 So, it’s rarely possible to find a fully-rounded marled woman, 385 00:22:37,967 --> 00:22:40,242 with a happy home and three children, 386 00:22:40,407 --> 00:22:44,241 prepared to devote virtually her whole life to a department. 387 00:22:44,407 --> 00:22:49,640 It's Catch 22, really. Well, Catch 22, sub-paragraph A! 388 00:22:51,327 --> 00:22:54,319 I think we must ensure that our respective ministers 389 00:22:54,487 --> 00:22:56,557 oppose this quota idea in Cabinet 390 00:22:56,727 --> 00:22:59,161 by drawing our own minister’s attention 391 00:22:59,327 --> 00:23:01,716 to each department's special problems. 392 00:23:01,887 --> 00:23:06,358 But we will recommend the principle of equal opportunities at every level. 393 00:23:08,687 --> 00:23:10,917 May I suggest one more thing? 394 00:23:11,087 --> 00:23:13,965 My minister sees the promotion of women 395 00:23:14,127 --> 00:23:17,085 as a means of creating greater diversity 396 00:23:17,247 --> 00:23:19,238 at the top of the servlce. 397 00:23:19,407 --> 00:23:21,921 We should stress to our ministers that, 398 00:23:22,087 --> 00:23:25,682 frankly, you couldn't find a more diverse lot than us. 399 00:23:25,847 --> 00:23:30,921 - Absolutely! - A real cross-section of the nation. 400 00:23:36,047 --> 00:23:38,641 Ah, Minister, how was Cabinet? 401 00:23:40,687 --> 00:23:43,155 - Bit odd, actually. - Why? 402 00:23:43,327 --> 00:23:46,717 We were talking about the top jobs quota for women. 403 00:23:46,887 --> 00:23:49,606 - Was it agreed? - That's what's so odd. 404 00:23:49,767 --> 00:23:51,564 They all agreed in principle, 405 00:23:51,727 --> 00:23:55,356 but then said it wouldn't work in their own departments. 406 00:23:55,527 --> 00:23:58,360 - They didn’t support me at all. - Extraordinary. 407 00:23:58,527 --> 00:24:01,360 And I'm not getting support from Annie. 408 00:24:01,527 --> 00:24:05,440 - Really? What, about this quota? - Well, about promoting Sarah. 409 00:24:05,607 --> 00:24:08,405 - You'd think she'd be 100% behind it. - Indeed. 410 00:24:08,567 --> 00:24:11,684 She goes sort of distant when I mention it. 411 00:24:11,847 --> 00:24:15,317 - Dead against it now. - Even more extraordinary. 412 00:24:15,487 --> 00:24:18,081 Oh, well, seems the only thing left. 413 00:24:18,247 --> 00:24:21,080 - Something I can achieve. - Yes, indeed. 414 00:24:21,247 --> 00:24:25,843 Shall I ask Mrs Harrison to come in? Bernard, would you be kind enough? 415 00:24:26,447 --> 00:24:29,917 At least this is something I can say I have done. 416 00:24:30,087 --> 00:24:31,918 - Indeed. - Lighting a spark. 417 00:24:32,087 --> 00:24:33,839 Carrying a torch, even. 418 00:24:36,767 --> 00:24:39,156 Ah, Sarah, do sit down. 419 00:24:39,327 --> 00:24:41,318 - Thank you. - Humphrey. 420 00:24:42,407 --> 00:24:47,401 Sarah, there is a vacancy for a Deputy Secretary in this department. 421 00:24:47,567 --> 00:24:50,559 In spite of you being the most junior Under-Secretary, 422 00:24:50,727 --> 00:24:53,321 but because you are the outstanding person, 423 00:24:53,487 --> 00:24:56,479 Sir Humphrey and I will recommend you for promotion 424 00:24:56,647 --> 00:24:58,683 to the grade of Deputy Secretary. 425 00:25:01,407 --> 00:25:03,637 I... I don't know what to say. 426 00:25:03,807 --> 00:25:08,119 - No need to say anything. - A single thank you should suffice. 427 00:25:09,567 --> 00:25:12,559 No... Well... I mean... 428 00:25:12,727 --> 00:25:16,720 Oh, gosh. Look, this Is awfully embarrassing. I mean... 429 00:25:16,887 --> 00:25:18,798 Well, I was gong to tell you this week. 430 00:25:18,967 --> 00:25:21,117 I'm resigning from the Civil Servlce. 431 00:25:23,007 --> 00:25:24,998 - What? - Resigning? 432 00:25:25,647 --> 00:25:28,878 Yes, so... thank you, but no, thank you. 433 00:25:30,287 --> 00:25:33,165 Some problem at home with your children? 434 00:25:33,327 --> 00:25:34,442 Mumps? 435 00:25:36,447 --> 00:25:39,917 No, I'm joining a merchant bank... as a director. 436 00:25:40,687 --> 00:25:44,885 Sarah... I won't conceal from you the fact that this is a blow. 437 00:25:45,047 --> 00:25:48,164 The reason Humphrey and I decided to recommend you 438 00:25:48,327 --> 00:25:50,966 Is that I've been fighting a losing battle 439 00:25:51,127 --> 00:25:53,721 to improve promotion prospects for women. 440 00:25:53,887 --> 00:25:57,118 You were to be my, so to speak, Trojan horse. 441 00:25:58,887 --> 00:26:03,278 Quite honestly, Minister, I want a job where I don't spend endless hours 442 00:26:03,447 --> 00:26:05,756 circulating information about subjects 443 00:26:05,927 --> 00:26:09,044 that don't matter to people who aren't interested. 444 00:26:11,247 --> 00:26:15,081 I want a job where there's achievement rather than merely activity. 445 00:26:15,247 --> 00:26:16,839 I'm tired of pushing paper. 446 00:26:17,007 --> 00:26:20,522 I want to point to something and say “I did that." 447 00:26:20,687 --> 00:26:23,281 I don't understand. 448 00:26:24,247 --> 00:26:26,477 I know. That's why I'm leaving. 449 00:26:27,887 --> 00:26:30,526 You're not saying the government is unimportant? 450 00:26:30,687 --> 00:26:35,078 It's very important. it’s just that I haven't met anyone who's doling it. 451 00:26:37,887 --> 00:26:41,436 Also I've had enough of the pointless intrigue. 452 00:26:41,607 --> 00:26:44,804 - Intrigue? - You know the sort of thing. 453 00:26:44,967 --> 00:26:47,162 Like this women's rights nonsense. 454 00:26:47,327 --> 00:26:49,966 Your using me as a Trojan horse, for instance. 455 00:26:50,127 --> 00:26:54,120 They probably said the unions wouldn’t wear it if you promoted me. 456 00:26:54,287 --> 00:26:58,917 - How did you know that? - I just know how things are done. 457 00:27:00,247 --> 00:27:03,603 You don't realise I've fought quite a battle for you. 458 00:27:03,767 --> 00:27:07,442 Oh, have you? I didn’t ask you to flight a battle for me. 459 00:27:07,607 --> 00:27:11,043 I'm not pleased at being part of a 25% quota. 460 00:27:11,207 --> 00:27:15,723 Women are not inferior beings and I don't enjoy being patronised. 461 00:27:16,567 --> 00:27:21,595 I'm afraid you're just as paternalist and chauvinist as the rest of them. 462 00:27:22,447 --> 00:27:27,237 I'm gong somewhere where I shall be accepted an equal, as a person. 463 00:27:27,407 --> 00:27:29,318 You can't win, can you? 464 00:27:30,647 --> 00:27:34,037 - May I go now - Hm? Yes, of course. 465 00:27:36,447 --> 00:27:40,156 I'm sorry I offended you, though I can't remember how I did. 466 00:27:40,327 --> 00:27:41,521 No. 467 00:27:41,887 --> 00:27:45,277 And thank you. I know you both mean well. 468 00:27:55,527 --> 00:27:56,721 Women! 469 00:27:58,567 --> 00:28:00,364 Yes, Minister.