1 00:00:42,207 --> 00:00:45,962 The main news this Thursday pm Is the big government re-shuffle. 2 00:00:46,167 --> 00:00:49,159 I have with me, to discuss his new empire, 3 00:00:49,327 --> 00:00:53,718 the Minister for Administrative Affairs, the Right Honourable James Hacker. 4 00:00:53,887 --> 00:00:58,802 It's been said that you are now Mr Town Hall as well as Mr Whitehall. 5 00:00:59,007 --> 00:01:02,317 Well, it’s very flattering of you to put it that way. 6 00:01:02,487 --> 00:01:06,480 It wasn’t me who put it that way, It was the Dally Mirror. 7 00:01:07,487 --> 00:01:11,799 I just wanted to confirm that you are now this country's chief bureaucrat. 8 00:01:11,967 --> 00:01:16,119 That's nonsense. This government believes in reducing bureaucracy. 9 00:01:16,287 --> 00:01:17,845 Figures I have here say 10 00:01:18,007 --> 00:01:21,283 that your department’s staff has risen by 10%. 11 00:01:21,447 --> 00:01:23,677 - Certainly not. - What figure do you have? 12 00:01:23,847 --> 00:01:28,125 I believe the figure Is much more like 9.97. 13 00:01:28,287 --> 00:01:30,005 Well, it has been suggested 14 00:01:30,167 --> 00:01:32,761 that your department Is less interested 15 00:01:32,927 --> 00:01:35,600 in reducing bureaucracy than in increasing it. 16 00:01:35,767 --> 00:01:40,283 Well, yes, but that's because we've had to take on more staff 17 00:01:40,447 --> 00:01:42,358 in order to reduce staff. 18 00:01:43,087 --> 00:01:45,442 - I beg your pardon? - it’s common sense. 19 00:01:45,647 --> 00:01:48,207 We need more doctors to cure more patents, 20 00:01:48,367 --> 00:01:50,642 more firemen to extinguish more fires. 21 00:01:50,807 --> 00:01:53,765 How will you extinguish local government bureaucracy? 22 00:01:53,927 --> 00:01:56,157 It's a challenge I'm looking forward to. 23 00:01:56,327 --> 00:01:59,160 Would you agree there's even more bureaucratic waste 24 00:01:59,327 --> 00:02:00,726 there than in Whitehall? 25 00:02:00,887 --> 00:02:03,162 Yes, that's what makes it a challenge. 26 00:02:03,327 --> 00:02:05,283 How will you meet the challenge? 27 00:02:05,447 --> 00:02:08,007 It's far too early to give detailed proposals. 28 00:02:08,167 --> 00:02:10,556 I've just come here direct from Number 10. 29 00:02:10,727 --> 00:02:13,719 From number9.97, perhaps! 30 00:02:15,687 --> 00:02:18,724 The broad strategy Is to cut ruthlessly at waste 31 00:02:18,887 --> 00:02:21,401 while leaving essential services intact. 32 00:02:21,567 --> 00:02:25,082 That's what your predecessor said. Did he fall? 33 00:02:25,287 --> 00:02:28,438 Let me finish. Because we must be absolutely clear 34 00:02:28,607 --> 00:02:31,360 and I'm gong to be quite frank with you. 35 00:02:33,127 --> 00:02:37,917 The fact is that, at the end of the day, It is the right, the duty, 36 00:02:38,087 --> 00:02:41,079 of the elected government in the House of Commons 37 00:02:41,247 --> 00:02:45,240 to ensure government policy, the policies on which we were elected 38 00:02:45,407 --> 00:02:47,363 and for which we have a mandate, 39 00:02:47,527 --> 00:02:49,995 the policies for which the people voted, 40 00:02:50,167 --> 00:02:52,397 are the policies which, finally, 41 00:02:52,567 --> 00:02:55,764 when the national cake has been divided up... 42 00:02:55,927 --> 00:03:00,921 And may I remind you we, as a nation, don't have unlimited wealth? 43 00:03:01,087 --> 00:03:03,840 We can't pay ourselves more than we earn. 44 00:03:04,007 --> 00:03:06,202 ...are the policies... 45 00:03:09,647 --> 00:03:13,037 I'm sorry, what was the question again? 46 00:03:13,207 --> 00:03:16,119 I was just asking you whether you would agree 47 00:03:16,287 --> 00:03:18,517 that your predecessor had failed. 48 00:03:18,687 --> 00:03:21,121 Certainly not. On the contrary. 49 00:03:21,327 --> 00:03:24,478 It's just that this job Is an enormous... 50 00:03:25,167 --> 00:03:27,158 - Challenge? - Exactly! 51 00:03:30,287 --> 00:03:35,281 Incidentally, I heard your chap on the radio yesterday, Humpy. 52 00:03:38,327 --> 00:03:40,716 He sounded as if he wanted to do things 53 00:03:40,887 --> 00:03:43,242 about your new local government remit. 54 00:03:43,447 --> 00:03:45,881 He kept calling it a challenge. 55 00:03:46,047 --> 00:03:47,844 - Congratulations. - Very kind. 56 00:03:48,007 --> 00:03:50,919 You may soon be even more important than Arnold! 57 00:03:51,087 --> 00:03:53,999 Yes, I expect... Er, no, no, no, no, no. 58 00:03:54,927 --> 00:03:57,282 I do want to be quite clear about this. 59 00:03:57,447 --> 00:03:59,483 I'd never have given you local government 60 00:03:59,647 --> 00:04:01,956 if I'd thought you'd let Hacker do anything. 61 00:04:02,127 --> 00:04:06,678 - He won't be able to. Nobody else has. - That's not the point, Humpy. 62 00:04:06,847 --> 00:04:11,238 We've found in the past that all local government reforms rebound on us. 63 00:04:11,407 --> 00:04:13,523 When anybody finds a way of saving money 64 00:04:13,687 --> 00:04:15,678 or cutting staff in local government, 65 00:04:15,847 --> 00:04:17,963 It works for Whitehall just as well. 66 00:04:18,127 --> 00:04:20,766 Yes, but local government Is extravagant, 67 00:04:20,927 --> 00:04:23,441 overstaffed, incompetent, whereas we... 68 00:04:25,767 --> 00:04:29,362 - Exactly so. - I know my duty, Arnold. 69 00:04:30,247 --> 00:04:32,807 If he needs something to keep him busy, 70 00:04:32,967 --> 00:04:34,241 you know what to do? 71 00:04:34,407 --> 00:04:36,762 Get him to look into civil defence. 72 00:04:39,167 --> 00:04:41,886 Civil defence? You mean fallout shelters? 73 00:04:42,047 --> 00:04:43,719 Governments long ago decided 74 00:04:43,887 --> 00:04:46,242 civil defence was not a serious issue. 75 00:04:46,407 --> 00:04:48,204 Merely a desperate one! 76 00:04:49,767 --> 00:04:53,521 It's best left to those whose Incompetence can be relied upon. 77 00:04:53,687 --> 00:04:55,678 Local authorities! 78 00:04:57,367 --> 00:05:01,121 But the highest duty of government Is to protect its citizens. 79 00:05:01,327 --> 00:05:05,081 Presumably that's why they leave it to the borough councils! 80 00:05:11,487 --> 00:05:12,966 Thank you, gentlemen. 81 00:05:14,447 --> 00:05:17,280 Can I have a word about a proposal I worked out 82 00:05:17,447 --> 00:05:20,245 before we were transferred to this department? 83 00:05:20,407 --> 00:05:23,763 - And you are? - I am... what? 84 00:05:24,567 --> 00:05:28,037 - Yes, you are what? - What? 85 00:05:29,607 --> 00:05:33,043 - What? - I am Dr Cartwright. 86 00:05:33,207 --> 00:05:36,438 If I may put it another way, what are you? 87 00:05:38,927 --> 00:05:40,918 I'm C of E. 88 00:05:42,207 --> 00:05:46,200 The Minister means, what function do you perform in the department? 89 00:05:46,367 --> 00:05:50,565 - Don't you know - Yes, but the Minister wants to know. 90 00:05:50,727 --> 00:05:52,445 I'm a professional economist. 91 00:05:52,607 --> 00:05:55,326 Director Local Administration Statistics. 92 00:05:55,487 --> 00:05:58,684 You ran the Local Authority Directorate before we took over. 93 00:05:58,847 --> 00:06:02,044 Dear me, no. Sir Gordon Reid was the Permanent Secretary. 94 00:06:02,207 --> 00:06:06,405 I'm just Under-Secretary rank. I fear l shall rise no higher. 95 00:06:06,567 --> 00:06:09,559 - Why not? - Alas, I'm an expert. 96 00:06:11,647 --> 00:06:14,161 - On what? - On the whole thing. 97 00:06:14,327 --> 00:06:17,364 - it’s all in here. - What's this all about? 98 00:06:17,527 --> 00:06:19,802 Controlling council expenditure. 99 00:06:19,967 --> 00:06:23,960 I'm proposing that all council officials responsible for a new project 100 00:06:24,127 --> 00:06:27,324 List their criteria for failure before getting the go-ahead. 101 00:06:28,287 --> 00:06:33,281 - What do you mean? - it’s a basic scientific approach. 102 00:06:33,447 --> 00:06:35,756 You must establish a method of measuring 103 00:06:35,927 --> 00:06:38,236 the success or failure of an experiment. 104 00:06:38,407 --> 00:06:41,763 When it’s completed, you know if it’s succeeded or failed. 105 00:06:43,607 --> 00:06:47,600 A propose states "This scheme would fall if it lasts longer than this 106 00:06:47,767 --> 00:06:51,760 or costs more than that, if it employs more staff than these 107 00:06:51,927 --> 00:06:54,282 or falls to meet pre-set standards." 108 00:06:54,487 --> 00:06:57,126 Fantastic! You could never make it work. 109 00:06:57,287 --> 00:06:59,676 'Course you can. it’s all in there. 110 00:07:00,687 --> 00:07:04,441 This is my top priority reading. Why hasn't it been done before? 111 00:07:04,647 --> 00:07:07,241 I can't understand. I put it up several times 112 00:07:07,407 --> 00:07:09,637 and it was always welcomed most warmly. 113 00:07:09,807 --> 00:07:12,765 But there was always something more urgent on. 114 00:07:12,927 --> 00:07:15,964 Well, you've come to the right place this time. 115 00:07:16,167 --> 00:07:18,158 Thank you, Minister. 116 00:07:23,527 --> 00:07:26,883 This is marvellous, isn’t it, Bernard? 117 00:07:28,407 --> 00:07:29,681 Isn't it, Bernard? 118 00:07:31,247 --> 00:07:33,283 Oh, yes. Well, it’s... er... 119 00:07:33,447 --> 00:07:36,803 That is, it’s... um... very well presented. 120 00:07:36,967 --> 00:07:40,004 - Humphrey will be fascinated. - He's on his way here. 121 00:07:40,167 --> 00:07:43,079 - He'll give his views. - What are you saying? 122 00:07:43,807 --> 00:07:46,719 Yes, well, as I say, I think that he'll think 123 00:07:46,887 --> 00:07:48,798 that it’s beautifully... typed. 124 00:07:50,767 --> 00:07:54,521 - Ah, Minister. - Ah, Humphrey, come in. 125 00:07:54,727 --> 00:07:56,445 - Sit down. - Thank you, Minister. 126 00:07:57,047 --> 00:08:00,642 Now, local authorities. What are we gong to do? 127 00:08:01,447 --> 00:08:06,043 This new remit gives you more Influence, more Cabinet seniority. 128 00:08:06,207 --> 00:08:09,199 But do not let it give you any more work or worry. 129 00:08:09,367 --> 00:08:11,005 That would be foolishness. 130 00:08:11,167 --> 00:08:15,126 We've got to stop this appalling waste and extravagance. 131 00:08:15,807 --> 00:08:17,126 Why? 132 00:08:17,767 --> 00:08:20,122 - Why? - Yes, why? 133 00:08:20,327 --> 00:08:22,887 Well, it’s my job. We're the government. 134 00:08:23,047 --> 00:08:24,719 We were elected to govern. 135 00:08:24,887 --> 00:08:26,878 Oh, really, Minister. 136 00:08:28,327 --> 00:08:31,558 Surely you won't tamper with the democratic rights 137 00:08:31,727 --> 00:08:34,480 of freely-elected local representatives? 138 00:08:35,487 --> 00:08:38,479 Well... no, of course not. 139 00:08:38,647 --> 00:08:42,640 But local government isn’t democratic. Local democracy's a farce! 140 00:08:42,807 --> 00:08:45,640 Most people don't know who their councillor is. 141 00:08:45,807 --> 00:08:48,002 They never vote in a local election. 142 00:08:48,167 --> 00:08:49,566 Those who do regard it 143 00:08:49,727 --> 00:08:52,161 as a popularly poll for the government here. 144 00:08:52,327 --> 00:08:55,046 Local councillors are accountable to nobody. 145 00:08:55,207 --> 00:08:59,598 They're public-spirited citizens selflessly sacrificing their spare time. 146 00:08:59,767 --> 00:09:02,600 - Ever met any? - When there was no alternative. 147 00:09:03,847 --> 00:09:06,407 They're either busy bodies on an ego trip 148 00:09:06,567 --> 00:09:09,240 or in it for what they can get out of it. 149 00:09:09,407 --> 00:09:12,843 Perhaps they ought to be in the House of Commons. 150 00:09:13,007 --> 00:09:16,761 I mean, to see how a proper legislative assembly behaves. 151 00:09:17,967 --> 00:09:21,596 I'm gong to get a grip on them. I have a plan. 152 00:09:21,767 --> 00:09:23,041 You have a plan? 153 00:09:24,487 --> 00:09:25,806 Yes. 154 00:09:25,967 --> 00:09:28,481 I'm gong to insist that any local official 155 00:09:28,647 --> 00:09:30,956 who puts up a plan costing more than... 156 00:09:31,127 --> 00:09:35,723 say... 10,000 must accompany it with failure standards. 157 00:09:36,407 --> 00:09:37,396 With what? 158 00:09:37,567 --> 00:09:40,479 With a statement saying he will have failed 159 00:09:40,647 --> 00:09:44,640 If his project does not achieve certain... pre-set results... 160 00:09:45,647 --> 00:09:50,801 or exceeds... fixed time or staff or budget Limits. 161 00:09:50,967 --> 00:09:55,165 Where did you get the idea for this dangerous nonsense? 162 00:09:55,327 --> 00:09:57,443 From someone... in the department. 163 00:09:57,607 --> 00:10:00,644 I have warned you before about the danger of speaking 164 00:10:00,807 --> 00:10:03,446 to people in the department! 165 00:10:03,607 --> 00:10:07,122 I implore you to stay out of the minefield of local government. 166 00:10:07,287 --> 00:10:08,879 It is a political graveyard. 167 00:10:09,047 --> 00:10:10,765 Excuse me, Sir Humphrey, 168 00:10:10,927 --> 00:10:14,044 you cannot have a graveyard in a minefield 169 00:10:14,207 --> 00:10:17,005 because all the corpses would... powww! 170 00:10:20,207 --> 00:10:22,198 You got me this job, you said. 171 00:10:22,367 --> 00:10:25,006 But I didn’t expect you to do anything. 172 00:10:25,167 --> 00:10:28,364 I mean, you've never done anything before! 173 00:10:28,527 --> 00:10:31,997 - I am deaf to your complaints. - Please, I beg you... 174 00:10:32,167 --> 00:10:34,078 No, no, no, no, Humphrey. 175 00:10:34,247 --> 00:10:36,602 I want specific proposals straight away. 176 00:10:36,767 --> 00:10:40,362 And immediate plans For their implementation. 177 00:10:40,527 --> 00:10:42,722 What's the fuss about? 178 00:10:42,887 --> 00:10:47,358 I'm only proposing failure standards for local government, not Whitehall. 179 00:10:47,527 --> 00:10:49,245 Though come to think of it... 180 00:10:49,407 --> 00:10:52,524 If you insist on interfering in local government, 181 00:10:52,687 --> 00:10:56,362 may I make a suggestion that could prove a vote winner? 182 00:10:56,567 --> 00:10:59,559 Humphrey, I want to hear no more about... 183 00:11:02,567 --> 00:11:04,159 Vote winner? 184 00:11:04,327 --> 00:11:07,319 An area of local government that needs urgent attention. 185 00:11:07,487 --> 00:11:09,478 - What? - Civil defence. 186 00:11:11,807 --> 00:11:15,402 You mean fallout shelters? Surely they're just a joke. 187 00:11:15,567 --> 00:11:18,764 Precisely, Minister. At the moment, they are a joke. 188 00:11:18,927 --> 00:11:21,122 Local authorities are dragging their feet, 189 00:11:21,287 --> 00:11:23,323 but the highest duty of any government 190 00:11:23,487 --> 00:11:25,682 Is to protect its citizens. 191 00:11:25,847 --> 00:11:29,556 Some think building shelters makes nuclear war more likely. 192 00:11:29,727 --> 00:11:32,161 If you have the weapons, you need the shelters. 193 00:11:32,327 --> 00:11:35,080 Sometimes wonder why we need the weapons. 194 00:11:35,247 --> 00:11:38,125 Minister, you're not a unilateralist? 195 00:11:38,287 --> 00:11:40,482 Well... I sometimes wonder. 196 00:11:40,647 --> 00:11:44,242 Then you must resign from the government! 197 00:11:44,407 --> 00:11:49,720 Ah, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not that unilateralist. 198 00:11:49,887 --> 00:11:52,720 America will protect us from the Russians. 199 00:11:53,007 --> 00:11:54,838 Who's talking about the Russians? 200 00:11:55,007 --> 00:11:59,046 - Well, the independent deterrent. - it’s to protect us against the French! 201 00:12:01,767 --> 00:12:03,564 The French? 202 00:12:05,247 --> 00:12:07,477 - But that's astounding! - Why? 203 00:12:07,647 --> 00:12:11,037 - Well, they're our allies, our partners. - They are now. 204 00:12:11,207 --> 00:12:15,041 But they've been our enemies for most of the past 900 years. 205 00:12:15,207 --> 00:12:18,597 If they've got the bomb, we must have the bomb! 206 00:12:18,767 --> 00:12:23,682 If it’s for the French, of course, that's different. Makes a lot of sense. 207 00:12:23,847 --> 00:12:27,681 - Yes. Can't trust the Frogs. - You can say that again! 208 00:12:27,847 --> 00:12:30,839 There is increasing public concern about the bomb. 209 00:12:31,007 --> 00:12:33,919 If I were to be seen to be doling something about it... 210 00:12:34,487 --> 00:12:36,443 I see what you mean. 211 00:12:36,607 --> 00:12:40,725 Ludovic Kennedy is preparing a BBC documentary on civil defence 212 00:12:40,887 --> 00:12:43,685 likely to be critical of the current situation. 213 00:12:43,847 --> 00:12:46,600 If you were seen to be taking decisive measures... 214 00:12:46,767 --> 00:12:48,564 Right, yes. 215 00:12:49,407 --> 00:12:52,638 I always handle Ludo so frightfully well. 216 00:12:54,127 --> 00:12:57,802 - Right, well, where do we start? - Just a suggestion. 217 00:12:57,967 --> 00:13:00,003 The London Borough of Thames Marsh 218 00:13:00,167 --> 00:13:03,523 spends less on civil defence than any other authority. 219 00:13:03,687 --> 00:13:06,042 A ministerial visit, do you think? 220 00:13:06,207 --> 00:13:09,358 That's Ben Stanley's borough, with the wispy moustache, 221 00:13:09,527 --> 00:13:11,006 who the press all hate. 222 00:13:11,167 --> 00:13:13,601 Good point. Get onto it straight away. 223 00:13:13,767 --> 00:13:17,316 Get Bill to make sure the press knows about this visit. 224 00:13:17,887 --> 00:13:20,720 Tell them I lie awake at night 225 00:13:20,887 --> 00:13:24,277 worrying about the defenceless citizens of Thames Marsh. 226 00:13:25,887 --> 00:13:27,445 Do you, Minister? 227 00:13:29,447 --> 00:13:31,039 Well, I will now. 228 00:13:38,727 --> 00:13:40,240 What makes you think 229 00:13:40,407 --> 00:13:43,319 you can come swanning down here from Whitehall 230 00:13:43,487 --> 00:13:45,842 and tell us how to run our borough? 231 00:13:46,047 --> 00:13:48,038 I'm not swanning down from Whitehall. 232 00:13:48,207 --> 00:13:51,677 I'm asking you why you've done less than any other borough 233 00:13:51,847 --> 00:13:54,042 to protect the people who elected you? 234 00:13:54,207 --> 00:13:58,439 - Simple. We can't find the money. - Why don't you try looking for it? 235 00:13:59,247 --> 00:14:03,320 Oh, that's great! Stop school meals, buy no textbooks? 236 00:14:03,487 --> 00:14:07,241 - Turn OAPs out into the cold? - I can tell you where to find it. 237 00:14:07,407 --> 00:14:08,965 - You can? - Yes. 238 00:14:10,047 --> 00:14:12,083 Tell him, Dr Cartwright. 239 00:14:14,447 --> 00:14:17,405 Scrap the plans for the new exhibition centre 240 00:14:17,567 --> 00:14:20,684 with the artificial ski slope and jacuzzi pool. 241 00:14:20,887 --> 00:14:22,878 Close the Feminist Drama Centre, 242 00:14:23,047 --> 00:14:25,322 the council’s weekly newspaper and magazine 243 00:14:25,487 --> 00:14:27,796 and the Welfare Rights Research Department. 244 00:14:27,967 --> 00:14:31,482 You can halve the members' entertainments allowance, 245 00:14:31,687 --> 00:14:33,564 sell the Mayor's second Daimler, 246 00:14:33,727 --> 00:14:36,287 postpone the building of the new town hall, 247 00:14:36,447 --> 00:14:40,838 and cancel the 20 councillors' tourism fact-finding mission to Jamaica. 248 00:14:43,207 --> 00:14:45,562 And close the Gay Bereavement Centre. 249 00:14:49,967 --> 00:14:52,800 That'll save 21 millions on capital account 250 00:14:52,967 --> 00:14:55,527 and 750,000 a year on revenue account. 251 00:14:55,687 --> 00:14:57,484 Revenue account. 252 00:14:59,087 --> 00:15:01,282 - That's just stupid! - Why? 253 00:15:01,447 --> 00:15:05,599 Well, it’s depriving the disadvantaged of indispensable services! 254 00:15:05,767 --> 00:15:11,000 - Jacuzzi pools? - I don't care if we can afford a shelter. 255 00:15:11,167 --> 00:15:15,479 This is a unilateralist borough. We do not believe in nuclear war. 256 00:15:15,647 --> 00:15:17,478 I don't believe in it either, 257 00:15:17,647 --> 00:15:20,115 but the provision of shelters Is government policy. 258 00:15:20,287 --> 00:15:22,323 It is not Thames Marsh policy. 259 00:15:22,487 --> 00:15:25,399 Thames Marsh has no quarrel with the USSR. 260 00:15:25,567 --> 00:15:28,127 It's not just the USSR we're frightened of. 261 00:15:28,287 --> 00:15:29,845 It could be the Fre... 262 00:15:32,647 --> 00:15:36,401 - The who? - The... frigging Chinese! 263 00:15:40,767 --> 00:15:44,362 If the Russians do invade us, I suppose they'll say, 264 00:15:44,527 --> 00:15:47,121 "Hold on, we're not at war with Thames Marsh. 265 00:15:47,287 --> 00:15:50,006 Right, comrades, let's annex Chelsea instead." 266 00:15:51,007 --> 00:15:54,841 Excuse me, Minister. I think you may be interested in... 267 00:15:57,927 --> 00:16:00,646 Mr Stanley, it appears that you would not be 268 00:16:00,807 --> 00:16:03,401 called upon to make the supreme sacrifice. 269 00:16:03,567 --> 00:16:07,924 - What do you mean? - Is there a shelter under the town hall? 270 00:16:09,527 --> 00:16:11,245 Well, is there? 271 00:16:11,407 --> 00:16:14,126 - We didn’t build it! - You maintain it. 272 00:16:15,487 --> 00:16:19,560 - it’s only a small one. - And there is a place in it for you? 273 00:16:19,727 --> 00:16:22,639 I was persuaded, with deep reluctance, 274 00:16:22,807 --> 00:16:25,560 that my preservation was a necessity 275 00:16:25,727 --> 00:16:29,197 in the interests of the ratepayers of Thames Marsh. 276 00:16:29,367 --> 00:16:32,439 And what provision have you made for other essential persons? 277 00:16:32,607 --> 00:16:35,167 Doctors, nurses, firemen. 278 00:16:35,327 --> 00:16:39,081 People who might be almost as important as councillors. 279 00:16:39,287 --> 00:16:41,642 One of them's a chemist! 280 00:16:41,847 --> 00:16:45,806 Great. Nothing like aspirin for the nuclear holocaust. 281 00:16:47,767 --> 00:16:52,363 Your chap had quite a publicly triumph down at Thames Marsh, didn’t he? 282 00:16:52,527 --> 00:16:53,880 Oh, yes, tremendous. 283 00:16:54,447 --> 00:16:56,836 You don't sound appropriately happy for him. 284 00:16:57,007 --> 00:16:59,805 Trouble is he thinks he's achieved something. 285 00:16:59,967 --> 00:17:01,002 Splendid. 286 00:17:01,167 --> 00:17:05,638 Life is so much easier when ministers think they've achieved something. 287 00:17:05,807 --> 00:17:08,401 Stops them fretting. No tantrums. 288 00:17:09,327 --> 00:17:12,046 Now he wants to introduce his next idea. 289 00:17:12,207 --> 00:17:13,959 A minister with two ideas. 290 00:17:14,127 --> 00:17:17,005 I can't remember when we last had one of those. 291 00:17:18,607 --> 00:17:20,598 Oh, it’s not his own. 292 00:17:21,607 --> 00:17:23,962 He wants to introduce failure standards 293 00:17:24,127 --> 00:17:26,516 on all council contracts over10,000 294 00:17:26,727 --> 00:17:29,082 and make a named official responsible. 295 00:17:29,287 --> 00:17:30,879 - Humphrey! - I know. 296 00:17:31,047 --> 00:17:34,642 Cartwright’s idiot scheme! I thought Gordon had squashed it. 297 00:17:34,847 --> 00:17:36,519 He's come over to us now. 298 00:17:36,687 --> 00:17:39,724 Slipped the scheme to the minister privately, 299 00:17:39,887 --> 00:17:41,161 under plain cover! 300 00:17:41,967 --> 00:17:44,527 It'll be us next. Once you specify in advance 301 00:17:44,687 --> 00:17:46,757 what a project's supposed to achieve 302 00:17:46,927 --> 00:17:50,044 and whose responsibility it is to see that it does, 303 00:17:50,207 --> 00:17:51,925 the entire system collapses. 304 00:17:52,087 --> 00:17:55,477 You're into the squalid world of professional management. 305 00:17:55,647 --> 00:17:58,002 I know. I've tried to explain to him. 306 00:17:58,207 --> 00:18:01,358 I have pointed out that his new responsibilities 307 00:18:01,527 --> 00:18:04,678 were for enjoying, not exercising. I don't know. 308 00:18:04,847 --> 00:18:07,566 We move our officials round every 2 or3 years 309 00:18:07,727 --> 00:18:10,446 to stop this personal responsibility nonsense. 310 00:18:10,607 --> 00:18:13,997 If this happened, we'd be posting everybody once a fortnight. 311 00:18:14,167 --> 00:18:18,558 He must be stopped. What's his next little publicly trip? 312 00:18:18,727 --> 00:18:23,164 Well, tomorrow he’s living his little triumph over again. 313 00:18:23,327 --> 00:18:26,558 He's recording a TV interview with Ludovic Kennedy. 314 00:18:26,727 --> 00:18:28,797 A documentary on civil defence. 315 00:18:29,967 --> 00:18:31,798 Supposing he had a dossier 316 00:18:31,967 --> 00:18:35,357 on the curious ways in which local councillors 317 00:18:35,527 --> 00:18:38,121 spend their civil defence budgets. 318 00:18:38,287 --> 00:18:41,518 - How would that help? - I've got an idea. 319 00:18:41,687 --> 00:18:44,724 Perhaps you ought to become a minister! 320 00:18:46,967 --> 00:18:49,561 Um... just a joke, Arnold. 321 00:18:51,167 --> 00:18:54,045 Stand by, studio. We're about to record. 322 00:18:54,207 --> 00:18:56,675 A change for a minister to be given a chance 323 00:18:56,847 --> 00:18:59,202 to talk about something that's a success. 324 00:18:59,367 --> 00:19:03,406 Most unusual for the BBC. Is this a change of policy? 325 00:19:03,567 --> 00:19:05,444 ...2... 1. 326 00:19:05,607 --> 00:19:07,279 You've been claiming recently 327 00:19:07,447 --> 00:19:09,802 that in your dealings with local authority, 328 00:19:09,967 --> 00:19:13,118 you've been making progress as regards civil defence. 329 00:19:13,287 --> 00:19:17,405 Surely this has been more in the field of publicly than any achievement? 330 00:19:17,567 --> 00:19:19,762 No, no, no, no, Ludo. 331 00:19:19,927 --> 00:19:23,442 Authorities are being made to face up to these issues 332 00:19:23,647 --> 00:19:26,400 because of the interest we have generated. 333 00:19:26,567 --> 00:19:30,242 You're agreeing. Your success has been a publicly success. 334 00:19:30,447 --> 00:19:33,200 Well, yes, but things are changing. 335 00:19:33,367 --> 00:19:37,645 - Well, what about Thames Marsh? - Ah, Thames Marsh. Good example. 336 00:19:37,807 --> 00:19:40,765 As I said in the press, they have one shelter. 337 00:19:40,927 --> 00:19:44,283 A place in it is reserved for Ben Stanley, council leader, 338 00:19:44,447 --> 00:19:47,120 who refuses to build shelters for others. 339 00:19:47,287 --> 00:19:49,278 Don't you think that's hypocritical? 340 00:19:49,447 --> 00:19:51,597 Surely it’s reasonable to expect 341 00:19:51,767 --> 00:19:55,601 that one of our elected representatives should survive. 342 00:19:55,807 --> 00:19:59,482 - Who is to govern otherwise? - In the event of a nuclear holocaust 343 00:19:59,687 --> 00:20:03,680 and, of course, we all pray that such a thing will never happen 344 00:20:03,847 --> 00:20:08,045 there are perhaps more important people than mere politicians. 345 00:20:08,207 --> 00:20:11,324 Doctors, nurses, ambulance men, and so on. 346 00:20:11,487 --> 00:20:13,762 All people who run essential services. 347 00:20:13,927 --> 00:20:15,440 Correct me if I'm wrong, 348 00:20:15,607 --> 00:20:18,917 but is it not a fact that the PM and Home Secretary 349 00:20:19,087 --> 00:20:22,636 have places reserved for them in government fallout shelters? 350 00:20:23,647 --> 00:20:25,683 That is completely different. 351 00:20:27,407 --> 00:20:29,204 How 352 00:20:29,367 --> 00:20:33,565 Well, there has to be someone to... run the... you know. 353 00:20:33,727 --> 00:20:36,036 Minister, you're saying political leaders 354 00:20:36,207 --> 00:20:39,119 should give up their places for doctors and nurses. 355 00:20:39,287 --> 00:20:43,121 Have you put this idea to the PM and the Home Secretary 356 00:20:43,287 --> 00:20:46,359 I think we ought to be careful not to trivialise 357 00:20:46,527 --> 00:20:48,995 what is a very serious Issue, Ludovic. 358 00:20:50,767 --> 00:20:52,439 I'll give you another example. 359 00:20:52,607 --> 00:20:55,121 I know of a borough which sent councillors, 360 00:20:55,287 --> 00:20:59,041 at the ratepayers' expensive, to California to look at shelters. 361 00:20:59,247 --> 00:21:01,442 But they couldn't do anything about it 362 00:21:01,607 --> 00:21:04,360 because they'd spent the entire civil defence budget 363 00:21:04,527 --> 00:21:07,121 for three whole years on the trip! 364 00:21:08,047 --> 00:21:10,242 - How shocking. - Shocking. 365 00:21:12,487 --> 00:21:16,162 Thank you, Minister. By the way, how did the recording go? 366 00:21:16,367 --> 00:21:20,360 Well, I got into a bit of bother over Ben Stanley's bunker. 367 00:21:20,527 --> 00:21:24,202 I said politicians weren't as important as doctors and so on. 368 00:21:24,407 --> 00:21:25,806 Did you? 369 00:21:26,887 --> 00:21:31,278 Then he said "What about the PM's place in the government shelter?" 370 00:21:31,447 --> 00:21:34,644 - And what did you say? - I got out of it. 371 00:21:34,807 --> 00:21:36,798 Quite cleverly, actually. 372 00:21:36,967 --> 00:21:40,960 I'm not too sure how happy the PM will be about it. 373 00:21:41,127 --> 00:21:44,722 Then I recovered with a marvellous story about some councillors 374 00:21:44,887 --> 00:21:47,481 who went to California to look at shelters 375 00:21:47,647 --> 00:21:52,357 and spent three entire years of the civil defence budget on the jaunt! 376 00:21:55,327 --> 00:21:59,320 - May I ask where that came from? - Yes. Where did that come from? 377 00:21:59,487 --> 00:22:01,557 From the Civil Defence Directorate. 378 00:22:01,727 --> 00:22:04,116 They knew you were doling the interview. 379 00:22:05,647 --> 00:22:09,640 Oh, well. Anyway, Minister, I'm sure you know what you're doling. 380 00:22:10,487 --> 00:22:14,958 Humphrey... you only say that when I've made an appalling cock-up. 381 00:22:18,207 --> 00:22:22,598 You do know the borough in question contains the PM's constituency... 382 00:22:24,367 --> 00:22:26,437 and that the PM's election agent 383 00:22:26,607 --> 00:22:29,360 was the councillor who led the delegation? 384 00:22:34,647 --> 00:22:36,524 That was just a joke, wasn't it? 385 00:22:36,687 --> 00:22:39,440 Number 10 have been trying to keep it quiet. 386 00:22:39,607 --> 00:22:42,804 - Oh, well, truth will out. - No, no, no! 387 00:22:42,967 --> 00:22:48,087 No, no, no, it mustn't out. It might look like a personal attack. 388 00:22:48,247 --> 00:22:50,920 You know what the PM's like about loyalty. 389 00:22:51,087 --> 00:22:53,078 This interview must not go out. 390 00:22:53,287 --> 00:22:57,280 Well, unfortunately, I haven't the time, I must be gong. 391 00:22:57,447 --> 00:23:02,157 Humphrey, I... I... I... I'm ordering you, Humphrey. 392 00:23:02,327 --> 00:23:06,320 - Alas, your orders are calling me away. - What do you mean? 393 00:23:06,487 --> 00:23:08,045 Your scheme for imposing 394 00:23:08,207 --> 00:23:11,279 failure standards on local councils is very complex. 395 00:23:11,447 --> 00:23:13,722 You asked for proposals straight away. 396 00:23:13,887 --> 00:23:16,037 It's taking every moment of my time. 397 00:23:16,207 --> 00:23:18,402 Much as I would like to help. 398 00:23:20,367 --> 00:23:23,643 However... if implementing failure standards 399 00:23:23,807 --> 00:23:25,957 were not quite so urgent... 400 00:23:26,127 --> 00:23:28,800 You mean, you can stop this broadcast? 401 00:23:28,967 --> 00:23:32,562 Now, Minister, we cannot censor the BBC, 402 00:23:32,727 --> 00:23:36,561 but I happen to be lunching with the BBC's Director Policy. 403 00:23:36,727 --> 00:23:40,606 - Perhaps you'd care to join us. - But if we can't censor them... 404 00:23:40,767 --> 00:23:44,760 We could persuade them to withdraw programmes voluntarily 405 00:23:44,927 --> 00:23:48,602 once they realise that transmission Is not in the public interest. 406 00:23:49,087 --> 00:23:51,442 Well, it’s not in my interest... 407 00:23:51,927 --> 00:23:55,522 and I represent the public, so it’s not in the public interest. 408 00:23:58,967 --> 00:24:00,958 That's a novel argument. 409 00:24:03,087 --> 00:24:06,602 We haven't tried that on them before. Have we? 410 00:24:07,927 --> 00:24:11,397 The BBC cannot give in to government pressure. 411 00:24:11,567 --> 00:24:14,365 - Let's leave that on one side... - No, no! 412 00:24:14,527 --> 00:24:18,839 Let's leave that on one side, shall we? Please, Minister. 413 00:24:19,007 --> 00:24:21,237 Frank, could I raise something else? 414 00:24:21,767 --> 00:24:23,837 There is considerable disquiet 415 00:24:24,007 --> 00:24:27,716 about the BBC's attitude and hostility towards the government. 416 00:24:28,367 --> 00:24:31,564 - But that's absurd. - Is it? 417 00:24:31,727 --> 00:24:35,117 They've been documenting Instances of bias 418 00:24:35,287 --> 00:24:37,562 in BBC current affairs. 419 00:24:37,727 --> 00:24:40,560 Favourable news stoles not reported. 420 00:24:41,567 --> 00:24:43,319 Oh, yes. Excessive publicly 421 00:24:43,487 --> 00:24:46,285 for other countries' cases against Britain. 422 00:24:46,447 --> 00:24:49,280 Especially our Common Market enemies... 423 00:24:50,367 --> 00:24:53,245 ...um... partners. 424 00:24:53,407 --> 00:24:55,398 Oh, yes. 425 00:24:55,567 --> 00:24:58,400 Jokes against the Prime Minister. 426 00:24:58,567 --> 00:25:02,242 Unnecessary publicly For anti-government demonstrations. 427 00:25:02,447 --> 00:25:06,759 And ministers' programme suggestions not accepted. 428 00:25:08,447 --> 00:25:11,200 I had no room in my case for the others. 429 00:25:11,367 --> 00:25:14,006 I'm sure we have answers to all these. 430 00:25:14,167 --> 00:25:17,159 The BBC's always got answers. Silly ones. 431 00:25:17,327 --> 00:25:20,046 Yes, of course. I thought it fair to warn you 432 00:25:20,207 --> 00:25:21,959 that questions are being asked. 433 00:25:22,487 --> 00:25:26,480 - What sort of questions? - Well, for example, 434 00:25:26,687 --> 00:25:28,757 were Parliament to be televised, 435 00:25:28,927 --> 00:25:31,680 whether it shouldn't be entrusted to ITV. 436 00:25:33,247 --> 00:25:37,638 - You can't be serious? - And whether the BBC administration 437 00:25:37,807 --> 00:25:40,082 Is making the cuts in jobs and premises 438 00:25:40,247 --> 00:25:42,203 that we’ve endured in government. 439 00:25:42,367 --> 00:25:45,962 Should a select committee scrutinise BBC expenditure? 440 00:25:46,127 --> 00:25:49,642 - That would be an intolerable intrusion. - Well, of course. 441 00:25:49,847 --> 00:25:52,725 Then there's this extraordinary matter of boxes 442 00:25:52,887 --> 00:25:55,447 at Ascot, Wimbledon, Lords, Covent Garden. 443 00:25:56,727 --> 00:25:59,366 Ah, yes, those are a technical requirement 444 00:25:59,527 --> 00:26:02,121 for the production and engineering staff. 445 00:26:02,967 --> 00:26:05,925 Reports from the inland Revenue suggest 446 00:26:06,087 --> 00:26:08,442 that the production and engineering staff 447 00:26:08,607 --> 00:26:10,962 are all holding champagne glasses. 448 00:26:12,007 --> 00:26:15,477 And are all accompanied by their wives or... 449 00:26:15,647 --> 00:26:19,686 ladles of... equal distinction. 450 00:26:21,727 --> 00:26:24,195 And all bear a remarkable similarly 451 00:26:24,367 --> 00:26:26,961 to governors, directors and executives 452 00:26:27,127 --> 00:26:29,687 of the Corporation, and their friends. 453 00:26:29,927 --> 00:26:32,361 Oh, I say, you've come out very well. 454 00:26:35,367 --> 00:26:38,757 It is possible we can contain all this criticism, 455 00:26:38,927 --> 00:26:41,680 provided the files don't get any larger. 456 00:26:41,887 --> 00:26:44,355 I've urged my minister that there's no need 457 00:26:44,527 --> 00:26:47,087 to take up the civil defence issue formally. 458 00:26:47,247 --> 00:26:49,966 But... But you must see my position. 459 00:26:53,247 --> 00:26:55,966 The BBC can't give in to government pressure. 460 00:26:56,127 --> 00:26:57,640 We wouldn’t want them to. 461 00:26:57,807 --> 00:27:00,082 - Wouldn’t we? - No, of course not. 462 00:27:00,247 --> 00:27:02,761 The minister’s interview with Ludovic Kennedy 463 00:27:02,927 --> 00:27:04,645 did contain factual errors. 464 00:27:04,807 --> 00:27:06,718 Factual errors? That's different. 465 00:27:06,887 --> 00:27:09,401 The BBC couldn't give in to government pressure. 466 00:27:09,567 --> 00:27:10,602 Absolutely not. 467 00:27:10,767 --> 00:27:14,043 But we set great store by factual accuracy. 468 00:27:14,207 --> 00:27:18,200 Some of the information might well be out of date by the time... 469 00:27:18,367 --> 00:27:21,086 Out of date? Ah, now, that's serious. 470 00:27:21,247 --> 00:27:24,205 Obviously, the BBC couldn't give in to government pressure. 471 00:27:24,367 --> 00:27:25,356 Oh, indeed not. 472 00:27:25,527 --> 00:27:28,644 But we can't transmit out-of-date material. 473 00:27:28,807 --> 00:27:33,039 And since the recording, I realised that I made one or two slips 474 00:27:33,207 --> 00:27:35,926 that might have security implications. 475 00:27:36,087 --> 00:27:39,443 - Such as? - He can't tell you what they are. 476 00:27:42,247 --> 00:27:44,920 - Why not? - Security. 477 00:27:45,087 --> 00:27:47,078 Can't be too careful about security. 478 00:27:47,247 --> 00:27:51,001 If the defence of the realm is at stake, we must be responsible. 479 00:27:51,207 --> 00:27:54,961 Obviously, the BBC couldn't give in to government pressure, 480 00:27:55,167 --> 00:27:57,522 but security, you can't be too careful. 481 00:27:57,727 --> 00:28:00,082 - Can't be too careful. - Can't be too careful. 482 00:28:00,287 --> 00:28:02,801 If there are inaccuracies and security worries, 483 00:28:02,967 --> 00:28:05,481 the BBC wouldn’t want to put the interview out. 484 00:28:05,647 --> 00:28:10,084 - Precisely. - That puts a different complexion on it. 485 00:28:10,247 --> 00:28:13,284 Transmission would not be in the public’s interest, 486 00:28:13,447 --> 00:28:16,007 but I must make one thing absolutely clear. 487 00:28:16,167 --> 00:28:18,123 There can be absolutely no question 488 00:28:18,287 --> 00:28:22,041 of the BBC ever giving in to government pressure. 489 00:28:23,207 --> 00:28:25,516 Oh, good news, Minister. 490 00:28:26,047 --> 00:28:28,515 The BBC have decided not to send out 491 00:28:28,687 --> 00:28:30,996 your interview with Ludovic Kennedy. 492 00:28:31,167 --> 00:28:33,920 They felt that was the responsible course. 493 00:28:34,087 --> 00:28:36,078 - Well done. - Oh, it was nothing. 494 00:28:36,247 --> 00:28:39,239 Yet, you know, I can't help feeling 495 00:28:39,407 --> 00:28:41,637 that I was trapped into saying those things 496 00:28:41,807 --> 00:28:43,877 that might’ve embarrassed the PM. 497 00:28:44,847 --> 00:28:46,883 - Surely not? - Yes. 498 00:28:47,447 --> 00:28:50,245 I think I was dropped right in it. 499 00:28:51,607 --> 00:28:53,677 How could you think such a ridiculous thought? 500 00:28:53,847 --> 00:28:58,079 Why is it ridiculous to imagine that he would've tried to trap me? 501 00:28:58,647 --> 00:28:59,921 Who? 502 00:29:00,607 --> 00:29:02,040 Ludovic Kennedy. 503 00:29:03,727 --> 00:29:07,720 Oh, Ludovic Kennedy tried to trap you. Yes, well, I'm sure he did. 504 00:29:07,887 --> 00:29:10,526 Deceitful crowd, the medal. Underhand. 505 00:29:10,687 --> 00:29:12,439 No, thoroughly deceitful. 506 00:29:12,607 --> 00:29:16,919 By the way, I think it might be wise to lay off the local councils. 507 00:29:17,087 --> 00:29:18,406 Oh, yes? 508 00:29:18,567 --> 00:29:23,163 After all, councillors are responsible, sensible people on the whole. 509 00:29:23,327 --> 00:29:26,319 - And they are democratically elected. - Democratically elected. 510 00:29:26,487 --> 00:29:29,001 Central government must be frightfully careful 511 00:29:29,167 --> 00:29:31,476 before it tells them how to do their jobs. 512 00:29:31,647 --> 00:29:35,720 Frightfully careful. And the failure standards? 513 00:29:35,887 --> 00:29:40,085 Well, I think the same applies... don't you? 514 00:29:40,247 --> 00:29:41,839 Yes, Minister.